Priorities

Kommentare

111 Kommentare

  • 308
    308

    @ Ken > And for the record:  If they come out with a new "21S" or whatever they'll call it; if it addresses these major issues, I'll buy.

    I'm betting the revised version is in the works. 

     

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Hi Ken. I thought of that too. I even thought that maybe they don't browse the forum anymore ?  Could that be ?  Maybe business is slow and they had to let go some staff ?

    Well anyway, if our priority-problem is just not solvable due to techical limitations.... just tell me and I'll be fine. I don't expect the impossible from Sena. But now the status is: "we dropped it at R&D". Owwwkey.... that's cool if that is true. But I'm dying to find out what did R&D say ?

    So my guess is they either ignore this problem because of some know-it-all-eurotrash-guy-with-his-big-mouth (like I'm the only one having this problem) or they stopped reading the forum alltogether. Maybe they're focussing their attention on Facebook ? I can't get an answer there either though.

     

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    This is weird...
    I talked to a guy with the Schuberth SRCS-system. They also have their intercom cutt off by the Zumo.
    Then I talked to a guy with the Cardo Scala Rider G4. Same here !!
    What's going on ? Has the world gone mad ?  What am I missing here ?  How on earth is it possible that all brands made the same mistake ? Is it a mistake ? Or is it something else ?  Law ? Technical ? I don't get it... :(

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  • Dae
    Dae

    The key difference Marc is that Cardo don't advertise that the Scala (which is what the Schuberth is) can do multitasking so it sort of makes sense that they put the phone first. Sena, on the other hand, advertise multitasking as a feature yet failed to implement it in a manner that works. The sole reason i bought the 20s was for the multitasking as it was supposed to sort my issue of the intercom being cut off by the GPS.

    I too am in the camp that has to pair the phone to the Zumo and the Zumo to the Sena as the Zumo needs to the phone paired to pick up traffic, weather and other useful functions. I also need the caller ID function which I can only get through using the phone via the Zumo.

    I've had a number of people ask me for a recommendation on comms and i'm currently stating to avoid Sena. 3 months ago when I had an SMH10 my answer was a firm "go sena, they're great". It's amazing how much business I think they're losing by releasing a product that doesn't work as advertised and then failing to listen to customers and fix the issues. Combined with the random poweroff issue that so many of us are getting I'd consider the 20s to be a beta product, unfinished at best and certainly won't be buying another of their products if the issue isn't solved.

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Well, I got this from the Sena S20-site: Sena 20S Audio Multitasking™ technology allows you to have an intercom conversation while simultaneously listening to music, FM radio, or GPS. No longer do users have to deal with the frustrations of interruption-based audio functions of past Bluetooth communication devices.

    Indeed, this is exactly our problem. We still have to deal with frustrations it seems... However, Sena's statement is correct IF you pair your GPS as a GPS, and listen to music from another source. And this is just the problem. I don't actually have another source that is satisfying, nore do I WANT another source, because I can manipulatie this one on the little glove-friendly screen in front of me.

    So allthough this topic focusses on the source-priorities within the 20S, it might be better to focus on the ability to listen to stereo-audio, comming from your GPS. Just as it is possible to listen to stereo-audio comming from your mobile Phone. If that were the case I would gladly understand that the mobile Phone would have a higher priority than the intercom.

    So functionally we (the customers) know what we want. It's just that Sena has to make it, and I don't know if they are still listening to us.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    "Sena 20S Audio Multitasking™ technology allows you to have an intercom conversation while simultaneously listening to music, FM radio, or GPS. No longer do users have to deal with the frustrations of interruption-based audio functions of past Bluetooth communication devices."


    Well, they don't mention TELEPHONE in their list of things that won't interrupt intercom conversation.   And that appears to be where the problem lies.  We're connecting our Zumos as a phone in order to enjoy the benefits and features of the Zumo device.  So it does indeed interrupt intercom.   In order to use the Zumo as it was designed with all it's features, it cannot be paired as a phone as described in the 20S manual.  

    Talking to another Scala user, she said that her GPS interrupts her intercom as well.  I think they probably all do that.  She said that she and her friend were considering purchase of a pair of 20S units because of the ability to have intercom conversation; uninterrupted by the GPS.   I told her that she wouldn't be happy; that the 20S has exactly the same problem and it doesn't appear that Sena is doing anything about it.  They're sticking with their Scalas; at least for now.   

     

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Hooray!

    Dave Meikle came up with the idea of using an FM transmitter plugged into my Harley radio and then simply listen to the radio via the Sena's FM radio feature.

    I'm here to report that it works magnificently!  AND, it opens up so many more new possibilities.   I've been sitting on the motor down in my workshop for the past 2 hours trying every possibility that I can imagine.  They all work.   With this configuration, the Sena/Zumo/HD Radio/iPhone do so much that I'm going to start a new thread.  

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    ...interesting... :)  Got any pictures to share ?  No idea what such a transmitter looks like. I'll subscribe to the new thread.

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  • DjPaul
    DjPaul

    Fellow riders, We need your help!

    Please go to this thread  

     

    http://support.sena.com/entries/54448250

     

    And show your support in this issue, by posting your comment / experience, Bad and good stories are welcome.

    Then go to the SENA help desk

     

    http://support.sena.com/requests/new

     

    and formally request a ticket be issued about this.

    If we rally together, we may be able to do something about this BEEPS issue before it kills some one you love.

    PLEASE SUPPORT SHAWN PRIEBE

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  • Dan
    Dan

    sena, we are all still waiting for that priority setting...

     

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  • Ken
    Ken

    It's probably never going to happen, Dan.  Just like the popcorn noise that annoys us so much.  I believe that both are inherent in the hardware; else they'd have done something about the issues.  

    I've found that the FM transmitter solution works wonderfully.  The priority setting is no longer an issue when the Zumo is  converted to an FM radio signal, received by the Sena 20S's internal FM receiver. 

     

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  • Dan
    Dan

    we are completely blind to what happens in the R&D,  so I choose to be optimist. They have all winter, for me.

    I tried the FM tx for music/instruction playing to a group before. The GPS audio cable output level is too weak and not heard in the fm radio (with usual hear plugs). even with all volumes max out. How did you make it work? I also have an issue with the waterproofness of having an audio cable out of gps, back in a 12v FM transmitter probably hidden n the seat, etc...Its just messy.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    It's been so long that I first hooked up the FM transmitter that I had to think about it to remember how it was done.  But now I have it.  This may be Harley-specific; but it works for me.  

    My Zumo's audio power, input, and output cables are part of the motorcycle base.  All three terminate inside the fairing.  I have the audio out connector extended with a short extender and plugged into my Harley radio's auxiliary input on the front.   This is how I used to hear my Zumo via wired cable headset (before the Bluetooth headsets).    So the Harley radio amplified the Zumo output, controlled by the motorcycle's volume control.    Now, I tapped into the right and left speaker outputs from the Harley radio and connected them to the FM transmitter.  So anything that is produced by the Harley radio is being re-transmitted onto the FM frequency airwaves.  The Sena FM radio picks it up.   

    With this configuration, I can listen to the Zumo, AM, FM, WX and even CB radio via my Sena 20S's integral FM receiver.  Works pretty cool for me.  So well that I drilled a hole  in my Harley's inner fairing (instrument panel) and the FM transmitter is plugged in 100% of the time.  One of my other friends has done the same.  

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    There are optimists.... and realists... :). Sorry Dan. Forget Sena. They are not putting anymore energy in the 20S. Time for us to buy the next one. 21S perhaps.

    They dropped this at R&D last winter. Yeah right.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Sena surprised us with a new firmware upgrade  A bunch of thumbs-up for Sena on this one!  I upgraded and connected my Zumo as a GPS device into the second phone port and it works perfectly.  Can't wait to get with a buddy and try intercom while listening to Zumo music and then have a GPS routing alert come on.  The new manual states that it will not block out Intercom!    

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Huh ? Really ? Are you talking about v.1.6 ? Are you saying they actually made it like we want to ?

    OMG, didn't see that one comming. Thanks very much if it's true. They could have mentioned it here though.

    Anyway, I'm definetely testing that.

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Having read the manual I fear that it was too good to bee true... Nothing has acutally changed.

    The priorities are still the same (manual page 42). So the mobile Phone will still interrupt the intercom. It doesn't mention mobile Phone 1 and 2 seperately.

    Pairing as a GPS still doesn't support the A2DP-protocol (manual page 17).

    Section 5.4.2. tells me that I still need the Zumo to pair as a mobile Phone if I want music from it. Consequently it will interrupt the intercom.

    What might be new is that the second mobile Phone now also supports A2DP. But who cares about that ? It will still interrupt the intercom.

    Please prove me wrong.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    I paired the Zumo as a Zumo by pressing the JOG button for 8 seconds and then clicking the phone button twice.  Then, paired the Zumo to the Sena as an audio device.  Music is definitely in stereo.  There's no doubt about it.  "City of New Orleans" has some good stereo separation; I used the tune to make sure.   Absolutely no doubt.  

    I'm good with the phone interrupting intercom.  Otherwise, I might miss an important phone calls.  Most  calls I get while on touring trips with my friends  would be important.  Also, if you're in Intercom and want to make a phone call, you wouldn't want the intercom to interrupt it.   I think phone needs to be higher priority. 

    BUT, there may be a work-around for that, too.  Instead of connecting the phone as the Sena's Phone-1, connect the phone to the Zumo and then the Zumo to the 2nd  phone port.  Leave the Sena's first phone empty.  Then, your Zumo will share audio with intercom.  If a phone  call comes in (through the Zumo), it'll have the same priority as the music.   NOTE:  I haven't tried this  because I don't mind the 99.9%-silent phone having top priority. 

    So I do think that they have addressed our needs.  I get stereo from my Zumo and only Ambient and Phone1 have higher priority . . . as they probably should. 

    Ken

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Marc, try section 5.4.1 on page 16.    When I tried to pair the Zumo as a phone into the 2nd phone port, the Zumo kept trying to use passcode 1,2,3,4 instead of the 0,0,0,0 that the Sena instructions say it needs.  It failed every time.  But when I paired as an audio device into the 2nd phone, it paired.  HOWEVER:  Music was in mono, not stereo.  

    So then I tried pairing as a GPS by clicking the phone button twice after holding the jog for 8 seconds.  This worked  and I experienced stereo sound from the Zumo's music player.  

    The  manual says that intercom will not be interrupted by the GPS routing instructions, but instead will overlay with them.   This would solve my issues with the Sena in priorities.  

    The only drawback is that I'll have to rely on the iPhone's SIRI to call ahead for hotel reservations, call specific people, etc.  I tested that on last year's trip and it worked.  It's probably safer while riding because manipulation of the Zumo to find the hotel and initiate the phone call isn't necessary if I use SIRI.    It would be rare that I'd ever  want intercom to interrupt my phone conversations. 

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Ken, just to verify: we are talking about the manual UsersGuide_20S_v1.6_en_151125.pdf ?  And on the Sena we use firmware 1.6 ? The Zumo uses firmware 3.20 ?

    I ask because there are some differences in behaviour.

    To start with: You say you press the JOG button for 8 seconds. The manual says 6 seconds. This might not be significant, but it might indicate that we are not talking about the same manual here...

    Furthermore: IF you pair the Zumo as a GPS (as in section 5.4.1 of the 20S-manual), it should be impossible that you hear music comming from the Zumo. Neither stereo nor mono. According to the pairingdiagram at page 16, only the HFP-protocol is received from the Zumo (which means "talk"). This is confirmed by the Zumo in the bluetooth-menu; I can't tick the media-option now. Could it be possible that you were listening to you Phone playing "City of New Orleans" ?

    Also: you talk about the Zumo using a passcode 1234 or 0000.... I don't recognize that. My Zumo never mentioned a passcode. No matter if I pair it to the 20S as a mobile Phone, a second mobile Phone or a GPS.

    Then you say that you paired the Zumo as a second mobile Phone, but that resulted in mono-music. Again, it's different here: I hear stereo music when I pair as a mobile Phone or as a second mobile Phone. If I pair as a GPS I hear no music at all. This is all confirmed in my manual.
    I do hope Sena doesNOT use different hardware or software for USA than for Europe ??!

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Yes, the manual says 6 seconds.  But it always has (and still does) take 8 seconds before the indicator changes and the Sena Lady says anything.  

    On your point #2:  Try it.  Definitely the music comes forth and is in stereo.  Before the latest release, it was in mono and sounded terrible.  But now, it's good and in stereo.  And to be sure, I had my phone on the desk in front of me.  I could A:B between the phone and the Zumo.  When I played music from the phone, the music from the Zumo would go quiet and then the phone's MP3 music would play.  Stop the phone music and turn it back off and the Zumo music would be playing.  

    Also:  Yes, when I tried to connect the Zumo as the second phone through the "Add Phone" routine in the Zumo, it always came up and said that it was using passcode 1,2,3,4.  The manual says that it should use 0,0,0,0.  I was never able to connect the Zumo to the Sena's second phone as a phone.    I've always been able to connect the Zumo to the Sena's First Phone port as a phone, but cannot connect  to the Sena's Second Phone port as a phone.    

    To elaborate:    When I try to "Add" a Phone on the Zumo, it works to the Sena's First Phone.  It does not work to the Sena's Second Phone port.   When I add the Zumo using the "Audio" add or change to the 2nd phone port  as another Sena phone, it works but the sound is in mono.  Finally, when I add the Zumo using the "Audio" add or change function to the 2nd port as a GPS, I get stereo!   Like you, I had doubts about the stereo sound when connecting as a GPS device.  But some black magic must be going on in the Zumo because I'm quite sure I get stereo.  

    I would like to try to connect the Zumo to the 2nd phone port with the Zumo thinking that it's a phone (add phone function), but it fails every time.  The only reason I can see for the failure is that the Sena is looking for a passcode of 0,0,0,0  or no passcode at all.  My Zumo says that it's trying to log in with a pass code of 1,2,3,4; which may not be allowed by the Sena. 

     

     

     

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  • Dan
    Dan

    The sena does not "provide" phone functions; it cannot present itself as a phone to the zumo. Zumo can bridge a phone but sena cannot  (20s cannot at least). So adding the sena as a phone through the zumo "add phone" makes no sense. I never use the "add phone" to try to pair to sena.

    Re-pairing the zumo with the zumo "add audio" would clear the previous pairing, so there is no sense in trying to pair twice the zumo with the sena.But I tried anyway, and failed as expected.

    I just put the latest 1.6 firmware on my 20s, then reset to factory. In all tests I delete all paiings on both sena 20s and zumo 660. And I always power off and on the zumo and making sure the sena is powered on and steady before the zmo to ensure proper reconnect (remember that zumo is usually not doing a2dp stereo connection on initial pairing).

    a) sena pairing selective media a2dp (section 6.1),  zumo pairing "add audio": this always fails (regardless of existing or not anterior gps pairing like suggested by Ken.)

    b) sena gps pairing, zumo "add audio" pairing: this works, but music in mono. (no change from previous version).

     

    As far as stereo music or priorities could be affected, in 2 words: nothing changed.

     

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  • Ken
    Ken

    In playing with this over the weekend, I've learned some more stuff.  

    In the Zumo, The option of pairing as a phone doesn't mean "pairing as a phone".  It means pairing to a phone!  This makes it all a little more clear to me.  So when the Sena instructions say to pair the Zumo "as a phone", they're talking about the function within the Sena . . . . not the pairing option in the Zumo.    That was adding to the confusion, but now I have it straight.  In the Zumo, use the "PHONE" pairing option ONLY when pairing to a phone.   When pairing to the Sena, ALWAYS use the "Audio Device" pairing.  

    With that aside, here's what I experienced:

    When the Zumo is paired to the Sena using the 2nd Phone port, the audio is in mono; loud, raspy, mono.    But when the Zumo is paired as a GPS, the audio is in stereo.  The instructions don't explain this at all.  The announcement here in the forum does not appear to be totally correct:

    "

    User photo
    Sena 
    Sena Technologies

    We were able to add a second A2DP profile to the 20S through the v1.6 firmware update. If you pair a device using Mobile Phone pairing then it will use HFP and A2DP and if you pair a second device using Second Mobile Phone Pairing then it will also use HFP and A2DP."

    Indeed, if using Second Mobile Phone pairing, it does not use A2DP (stereo).  Only if paired as a GPS does it pass the Zumo's stereo sound, it appears.  

    And it does work well paired as a GPS.  The sound is in clean, clear, glorious stereo!

    Supposedly, it "overlays" with other audio.  The Zumo lady is not supposed to take priority over Intercom when paired as a GPS.  But she does.  Not all the time, but beeps, alerts, and the Zumo lady seem to totally blank out Intercom some of the time; but not every time.  My friend and I tested this for almost 2 hours while sitting in the house with our helmets ON.  The first few beeps or Zumo directions did not interfere with intercom at all.  But repeated Zumo instructions and beeps did.  (just like before the new release).   It was then, intermittent.  

    A side note:  When the Zumos are paired to the Senas as Phone-1, simply turning the Zumo ON would clobber intercom; requiring turning the Senas OFF and back ON to restore intercom.  But connected as a GPS, powering the Zumo on or off has no effect on the Sena or Intercom.  It works perfectly.  

    Ken

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Wish we could edit posts.  Zendesk formatted my post above and I cannot change it.  The quote from Sena ends with "it will also use HFP and A2DP".   My comment resumed with "Indeed". 

     

    Indeed, if using Second Mobile Phone pairing, it does not use A2DP (stereo).  Only if paired as a GPS does it pass the Zumo's stereo sound, it appears.  

    And it does work well paired as a GPS.  The sound is in clean, clear, glorious stereo!

    Supposedly, it "overlays" with other audio.  The Zumo lady is not supposed to take priority over Intercom when paired as a GPS.  But she does.  Not all the time, but beeps, alerts, and the Zumo lady seem to totally blank out Intercom some of the time; but not every time.  My friend and I tested this for almost 2 hours while sitting in the house with our helmets ON.  The first few beeps or Zumo directions did not interfere with intercom at all.  But repeated Zumo instructions and beeps did.  (just like before the new release).   It was then, intermittent.  

    A side note:  When the Zumos are paired to the Senas as Phone-1, simply turning the Zumo ON would clobber intercom; requiring turning the Senas OFF and back ON to restore intercom.  But connected as a GPS, powering the Zumo on or off has no effect on the Sena or Intercom.  It works perfectly.  

    Ken

     

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  • Dan
    Dan

    Ken , can you please list all your settings, like audio multitasking, hd intercom, and all....

    and your hardware version (first 4 numbers of the serial number, like 1503...).

    Because, I wiped all BT parings on both the 20s, and the zumo (and I mean it on the zumo, I used the CLEAR button on the bluetooth details secret screen (nearly the last page) that you get from a long press of the compass).

    And pairing as a GPS (long press 6 seconds jog dial, 2 taps on phone button, green flashing and GPS pairing prompt) doesn't provide high quality a2dp stereo at all.

     

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Dan, I cannot explain that.  My friend and I both confirmed that paired as a GPS (and as you described), stereo music was provided by both of our units.  There's no doubt that the stereo sound we heard was coming from the Zumos through the Senas.  Did A:B comparisons between iPhone music and Zumo music; the Zumo-provided music was stereo just like the iPhone music, when paired as a GPS.  I even turned my iPhone completely OFF to make sure that the music was coming from the Zumo in stereo, just in case anyone asked.

    I attached a picture of my settings (copied on my phone, emailed to myself, used Snagit to snag the image, converted to .jpg and saved on my HDD, and then attached here.   Too big for the screen are the Sidetone and Advanced Noise Settings:  Both are ON. 

    Neither my friend nor I wiped all of our BT pairings on the Zumo or Sena.  Didn't do a "reset" , either.  Forgot about doing that; but apparently not required.

    First four digits of my Sena serial number are:  "1409".  

     

     




    1-12-2016 10-54-44 AM.jpg
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  • Dan
    Dan

    Ken, I thought interesting that you have navigation app support off... (assuming those switches are on when red and flicked on the right.)

    But after turning mine off, repairing as gps and powering off/on, same failure.

    Note: with all attempts at gps pairing, the zumo complains with a popup "bluetooth device connection has failed", yet I can hear the gps system touch beeps and mono crappy music, has if halpf the BT profile failed (perhaps the a2dp profile).

    My zumo 660 firmware is 5.10. And it is quite slow; it still searches for mp3 when I'm already in the music player to start it. The XD card is half full. By experience, I would say that the zumo degraded with addition of playlists and mp3, but mostly huge maps that don't even fit on the built in flash (they force put the maps on the XD now). The whole boot process is thrown off and the init of the BT pairings has sufferred in the past, with the SMH10 particularly. I think there is a race condition during the BT init preventing the A2DP to init because the media service is busy scanning mp3s! All speculation.

     

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Dan, the only obvious difference between ours is that you have a Zumo 660 and my friends and I have '665s.   I only have 138 tunes in my Zumo, so that could be a difference as well.  

    I'm familiar with the popup on the Zumo, "Bluetooth device connection has failed", but I only get that when telling the Zumo to connect to a phone.  When I select Audio Device on the Zumo screen, it connects without complaining.  

    It is my understanding that the Navigation App Support is only for when the smart phone is using a navigation application and doesn't do anything when a real GPS is utilized.  Since I use my Zumo for navigation, I have that switch turned OFF. 

    Ken

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    You have Zumo 665's ??? OMG, all this time I thought we were talking about the same hardware.

    Right !  So at Sena's something of a miracle happend. It seems indeed that they incorporated the H2DP-protocol into the second-Phone AND the GPS !!!  I had given up hope since winter 2014-15. This is VERY surprising !
    This is actually what this thread is all about. The thread is called "Priorities", but the actual problem was that we couldn't listen to music in GPS-mode, and that we were constantly interrupted by the Zumo in PHONE-mode.

    Now that the GPS-mode supports the H2DP-protocol as well, we can pair the Zumo as a GPS and listen to nav-instructions as well as music. The nav-instructions will still interrupt the intercom, but with audio-multitasking enabled it won't silence the intercom, just lower its volume. I'd have to experience with that, but I expect it to be fine.

    HOWEVER !..... I'm afraid Sena didnot test this with a Garmin Zumo 590... !

    When I pair the Zumo as a GPS it now indicates that there is an H2DP-protocol available as wel:

    <img src="http://www.marctelkamp.nl/images/590/1_590h2dp.jpg">

    Notice that the music-note is off.

    When I go to its device-options, I can't tick the media checkbox !!!

    <img src="http://www.marctelkamp.nl/images/590/2_590media.jpg">

    If I pair the Zumo as a mobile Phone (either first or second mobile Phone), I CAN get the media-optien ticked !

    <img src="http://www.marctelkamp.nl/images/590/4_590media.jpg">

    God damn ! So close and yet so far away.

    Both the Sena and the Zumo use the latest firmware.

    <img src="http://www.marctelkamp.nl/images/590/5_590info.jpg">

    I couldn't tell if this error lies with Sena or with Garmin. Either way: for Zumo 590-users... nothing changed.

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Sorry for the images. I had hoped they would appear inbetween the lines...

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