S20 battery life is pathetic
Had suspicions about that earlier but I was not sure about it. Yesterday I tested it: charged it fully and left standing by. Managed get ~24h in stand by mode and then battery just run out. Anyone experiencing the same?
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I know this is getting off the battery life issue, but here's my experience with the 20S.
Battery life issues aside (and setting that aside is doing some heavy lifting), I'm generally happy with the 20S. I'm not an early, early adopter. While I originally got S/N 14XXXX units, I at least didn't have to live through the growing pains in the first three firmware versions (1.0 through 1.2). I jumped in at version 1.3. I'm not a sophisticated user, so I won't use many of the features. The intercom works fine and is clear (had decent range when paired with an SMH5 that has shorter range), it connects and works great with my stupid phone (people can't tell I'm going down the hwy on the bike) and the radio is sufficient. In short, it does the basics well for me. However, it hasn't been bug free either. I've experienced the following issues:
1. As covered in great detail above, battery life is a disappointment. Stand-by battery life improved with the S/N 15XXXX units, but is still well short of what was advertised.
2. LOUD (and I do mean LOUD) "Hello" phone answering didn't work for me ever with version 1.3. Worked o...k when I briefly tried version 1.2. ***I updated to version 1.4 and it seems to work again***. But, again, you have to say "Hello" or any other word/sound VERY loudly for it to answer the phone. I probably will not use this function much.
3. "Hello Sena" command only works in the first 60 seconds in stand-by mode with firmware versions 1.3 and 1.4. It worked ok with version 1.2, but appears to come with reduced stand-by time (mic always on?). I think the 60 seconds of functionality makes users think it's working intermittently or some % of the time. But, it's actually very consistent with versions 1.3 and 1.4. It simply stops responding after 60 seconds in stand-by mode......EVERY time. I can make it work close to 100% of the time if I keep saying "Hello Sena" every 55 seconds :-)
4. Incoming intercom call while I'm in a phone call was automatically conferenced into my phone call *with no warning*. The only way I knew this happened was when the intercom caller said something. And they could hear/talk to the other person on my call as well. I should have had to hit the jog dial to conference them in. But, it was skipping that little step and letting them directly into the call. This was with an SMH5 paired to my 20S running version 1.3. I tried replicating this with my two 20S units paired and it didn't automatically conference the intercom call in, but it also didn't give me the expected beeps and "Intercom requested" voice prompt. So, I wouldn't have known the intercom call was coming in. However, I also tested that with my two 20S units running firmware version 1.4 and it worked as it's supposed to. I got the 4 beeps and "Intercom requested" voice prompt. So, that appears to be fixed in version 1.4. At least between two 20S units. It will be a bit before I can test it paired with my friends SMH5 unit.
That's all of the issues I can remember. I could live with most of them. But, the battery life issue is very disappointing. I'm very diligent about turning the unit off when not in use and charging the battery every night when on a trip. So, while I'm not happy about the two day stand-by battery life, I can live with it. But, if they are going to be dead anyway when I turn them on again a week after charging them, there's no need to charge them until close to the time I'm going to use them again. Which takes some of the spontaneity out of things........
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The response I got from Sena support when I reported my powered off battery life was as follows:
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Thanks for the added finding. These are great findings, please share them on our forum:
I have forwarded all the info to the manager to have it reviewed and updated on the website appropriately as these are all findings that engineers in Korea has done the testing in hence the mistakes in numbers. Thanks for bringing it up to us.
When not in use battery life does decrease as well just like all electronics do the longer they are not being used.
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The above was followed by some very generic battery maintenance and behavior info.
If I'm reading it right, they are treating it as a documentation issue (change stand-by time to 2 days vs 10 days or remove all reference to stand-by time) rather than a battery performance issue. I doubt they will document that the battery life is one week when powered off. I'm going to call them tomorrow.
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I talked to a Sena support tech this morning. They were very understanding and took all my info on both stand-by and powered off battery life to pass on to the Sena engineers. I hope to hear back from them in the not too distant future. There isn't much more the phone support team can do as they don't design, manufacture or market the products. From the responses I got to my online case and on the phone, it looks like 2 days is the new undocumented stand-by time. The phone support tech didn't seem familiar with the 8 day max powered off battery life. I'm hoping to get an official engineering response to that as well. Hopefully that isn't the accepted spec too......
IMPORTANT NOTE: Regarding the powered off battery drain, the phone tech mentioned something I had been thinking about as well. The batteries in the 20S units are apparently good for about 300 discharge/recharge cycles before they have to be physically replaced (20S batteries are considered not user replaceable). If you are NOT a daily/frequent user of your 20S unit, it was suggested that you NOT recharge immediately after each use. Given that a fully recharged battery may be completely drained after only a week of non-use, an infrequent/weekend only user who recharges the unit immediately after use will have to recharge it again before use the following weekend. This needlessly uses up your limited number of discharge/recharge cycles. So, after using the 20S unit, an infrequent user may as well wait and charge it just before the next use a week, month or whatever time later. If you are a frequent/daily user, you will have to recharge frequently anyway. So, powered off battery drain is less of a concern.
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So to ensure that you have a good strong battery for daily use, one should put it on the charger every night. (Else anything over 2 days and you'll probably hear "goodbye" more than you like.) But the battery is only good for about 300 discharge/recharge cycles? Are they talking about full discharge to full charge? Or are they talking about any time the unit is put on the charger?
And why does the 20-S battery perform so poorly when the unit is turned completely off? No other device I own has battery shelf life decay that bad. The previous Sena helmet devices had much better battery shelf life. There must be something draining the battery; even when the unit is completely turned off. Seems it should hold charge for at least a month while turned off. My other Li Ion batteries in other devises last much longer between charges while just sitting on the shelf. And 2 days of standby battery life is really unacceptable. The 12+ hours of talk time is superior; but all other battery life specs make me wonder why.
Ken
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IF you conserve battery use, I'm guessing you should be able to get 3 or 4 days out of a charge. I'm basing that on my observed pure stand-by and pure powered off battery life. By turning the unit off after each use, if you aren't long winded, drop intercom calls when not talking and limit radio use, the battery life should be somewhere between 2 days (pure stand-by) and 7-8 days (pure powered off). How far you get toward the 8 day max on a single charge depends on the duration and manner of each use. I'm not saying this is good or acceptable. I'm just estimating based on a conservative battery usage profile. Of course, my estimate could be way off if the battery drain is as linear as a 1968 VW Bug gas gauge. It could get to a given point and then fall off a cliff.
I have no idea if they are referring to full cycles or if each time on the charger is considered a "cycle". I suspect that any charging takes a toll on a battery. And, if the Sena batteries are like laptop batteries, keeping them fully charged degrades them. Which is why at least my laptop has a "best battery health" option to keep the battery at 50% charge vs. 100%. I'm going to re-charge as infrequently as possible in an attempt to extend the long term battery life.
As to why the 20S battery performance is what it is, I have no idea. Whatever info is stored on the unit (firmware, configuration, pairing info, speed dial numbers, radio presets, etc.) should be in non-volatile memory that requires no power to maintain. There isn't even a clock to maintain. But, there is obviously something that's draining the battery even when the unit is off. The charge isn't just evaporating.
There may be something the Sena engineers can do in the firmware that eliminates or reduces powered off battery drain. I'll just have to wait and see what they come back with regarding my case on that. I'll report back here when they respond. Regarding the 2 day stand-by time, based on what they told me, I'm not expecting any improvement on that. But, engineers are a creative type. I may be pleasantly surprised. So, I'm not ready to pull my hair out and swear off Sena products just yet.
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I forgot to mention one bit of advice I got from the Sena support tech. They were NOT suggesting that users should be fat and happy with this workaround, but you can run the 20S with an rechargable external battery pack connected to it via the USB port. You can stuff the battery pack in your jacket pocket and run the USB cable up to the 20S. The Sena support tech said that the 20S battery has a 500 mAh capacity. There are battery pack models on the market that have anywhere between 2000 mAH and 10,000 mAh or higher capacity and will still fit in your pocket. You can do the math to determine how much longer they will last vs the Sena internal battery. And if you disconnect the battery pack from the 20S when not in use, the battery pack won't drain while turned off!!! Battery packs costs $10 and up.
Another obvious alternative is to run the 20S off your bike power. But, if you are like me, you will get tangled up in the cable. And, of course, forget about it when getting off the bike and rip the cable out of the connector. So, I prefer the battery pack route.
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My typical use for the 20S is when on trips. We sometimes spend 12+ hours in the saddle (just to get out of Texas); and have the units turned on the entire time. I listen to XM Radio and have the intercom paired and connected to my traveling friends the whole way. The 12 hour "Talk Time" seemed to work out well on the trips we've taken and an overnight charge usually made it ready for the next day whether the charging indicator turned blue or not. The 20S excels over other Bluetooth helmet communicators that I've owned in that respect.
Riding locally (alone or with others), the unit is on for 20 minutes to one hour at a time, several times a week. I'd rather not get caught with a dead battery. So should I put it on the charger every time I come home. I hope that doesn't degrade the battery more quickly.
There must be a program running in the unit all the time (to sense that two buttons are pressed simultaneously). Otherwise, the 20S should benefit from the typical "self-discharge" rate of Lithium-ion batteries. (I'm assuming that's what technology is used).
"Batteries gradually self-discharge even if not connected and delivering current. Li+ rechargeable batteries have a self-discharge rate typically stated by manufacturers to be 1.5-2% per month.[91][92] "
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Good info Ken. My experience has been the same. Not sure what everyone's complaining about. Performance is better than the the others out there. 0 -
Let's get real here. You should NOT have to recharge the unit every week even if you only use it an hour a week. That's ridiculous. And expecting a product to at least be in the ball park of what was advertised is not unreasonable. My 20S units are getting 20% of the advertised stand-by battery life. And the self-discharge rate is WAY higher than the 1.5-2% per month Ken quoted above. My units are self-discharging at a rate of *at least* 12.5% PER DAY. And they may have been dead before I tried them again on day 8. Which would make the daily discharge rate even higher. I can live with the less than stellar stand-by battery life. But, one week powered off battery life? Come on.
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Some sort of parasitic drain on the battery. I'm sure they will figure it out. Not a big deal for me and I use mine everyday riding to and from work.
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And that's exactly why I said I'm not ready to pull my hair out and swear off Sena products just yet. I'm hoping they'll fix at least that issue. But, some 20S buyers bought it because the advertised specs met their specific needs. Urban and/or commuting riders may get along just fine with the battery performance I'm getting. Adventure riders, who can be away from AC power for days at a time, may not be so happy when they find out they have to buy more paraphernalia to recharge during a trip.
As for them figuring it out, if it's a firmware problem, that's great. We can update our firmware and life will be good. If it's a hardware issue, I'm concerned. IF they come up with a hardware revision to address the powered off battery life, I hope they honor RMA requests for that. But, it could be very expensive for them. If they don't, our only options will be to buy an updated unit or look at buying other brands.
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If anyone is away from power for extended time they normally will carry a USB based battery charger/. I know I dont leave home with out a couple of them for either charging my phone, sena or what ever. I happen top have/ 16000mAH batterries are cheap now a days Around $40 US Should we have to? Personal choice I have always done this
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We should take extra battery power for anything that might need it for extended time away from other ways to charge. But not because our headsets won't last more than a week while turned OFF, for sure . While turned OFF, the battery should last over a month without being dead when we try to use the devices. And only around 2-days standby is quite pathetic for a state-of-the-art device from a company that has previously produced such good and reliable Bluetooth headsets. I chose the 20S because of its advertised specifications and my own personal experiences with previous Sena products. Meeting those expectations should be the company's highest priority right now; both to satisfy the loyal users and to maintain their reputation.
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I agree. A Sena engineer got back to me regarding both the powered off battery drain and the "Hello Sena" command going away after 60 seconds in stand-by mode.
Regarding the battery drain, they characterized it as "strange" and said it should last 3 months. They said that if something is pressing the Jog dial while turned off, it may drain the battery. They asked me to try fully charging them again and recheck the powered off battery life. Given that I stored the units in the box with the documentation sitting on top (which is how it was shipped), I guess the docs *may* have been pushing on the jog dial. I doubt it though. I just pulled both out of the box, turned them on and issued the "check battery" command. One said the battery level is "medium" and the other said "high". They were both fully charged on 5/3/15. So, 4 days powered off and in the box and one was down to medium. I'm recharging the medium level unit, but not the high level one. I'll leave both of them out of the box so nothing can push any buttons and check them in ~5 days. The Sena engineer said that, if the problem persists, they'll want to evaluate my units.
Regarding the "Hello Sena" command, they said this:
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I checked the Voice command issue and found the reason of problem.
I forwarded this issue to our product management team.
We will fix it next firmware.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, it looks like that issue will be fixed. Whether it will come at a mic always on stand-by battery life cost remains to be seen.
The Sena folks have been very responsive. Let's hope they can resolve this.
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Just an update on my powered off battery life observations.
Just to recap.
1. I found that both of my 20S units that were fully charged and put back in the box on 4/25/15 were both drained an doing a low battery power off on 5/3/15
2. I fully recharged both units on 5/3/15 and put them back in the box
3. On 5/7/15 (4 days later), I powered the both up and one unit (xxxxxx15) said "battery level is medium" and the other (xxxxxx17) said "battery level is high"
4. The same day (5/7/15) I fully recharged the "medium" unit (xxxxxx15), but not the "high" unit (xxxxxx17) and left them both powered off and ***on top of the box*** (so no buttons could be accidently pressed)
5. Today (5/10/15) I powered on the "high" unit (xxxxxx17) and issued a "check battery" command. It responded with "battery level is high". I immediately powered it off again. I didn't power up and check the battery on the "medium" unit (xxxxxx15) as I'm going to let it sit never powered up for 8 days like it did before between 4/25 and 5/3 except out of the box.
So, after 7 days, the "high" unit (xxxxxx17) is still "high". Maybe it was a button being pushed in the box, maybe the battery is inconsistent, maybe the blue fully charged LED is incorrectly indicating a full charge, maybe the battery level reporting is inaccurate or maybe the battery will fall off a cliff and be dead in a few days. I have no idea at this point. I'll see how the (xxxxxx15) performs on day 8 to see if they are both behaving the same way.
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Mine seen to stay charged for several weeks when sitting unused. But then again I would always recharge mine before I took an important ride anyways so It really doesnt matter to me what the idle time is. Who would grab an uncharged radio and take off without charging it anyways? I do use mine about 3 times a week for riding to work though.
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Thomashohl, would you expect to recharge a radio for a local ride only a week after fully charging it?
The jury is still out on what my two units are doing. I'll have a better idea in about 5 days and work with Sena to try and figure it out. I'm not going to rationalize the battery performance I'm getting. It needs to be much better. I've never had any electronic device drain a fully charged battery after a week of being powered off.
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Just FYI, a user posted this on another thread:
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Good News! After updating to firmware 1.4 the battery no longer drains. I have 2 sena 20s on my desk that have been sitting for 5 days and they are still at a full charge. They would have been drained by now.
*** FIRMWARE 1.4 FIXED THIS ISSUE ***
If you have the same results, please post a comment and share your experience. If it didn't work for you, again, post it.
http://support.sena.com/entries/66940210-Battery-drains-when-unit-is-turned-off?page=1#post_29573564
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Unfortunately, I was already running firmware version 1.4 and both units completely drained between 4/25/15 and 5/3/15.
The good news (I think) is that the unit I recharged on 5/3/15 and reported "battery level is high" on 5/7/15 is still reporting a high battery level today (8 days later). I only powered it on to check the battery level and then immediately powered it off again.
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I sure wish Sena would give the details of their firmware to registered users. Then, we wouldn't have to wonder what has been fixed and what hasn't.
Keith, I tried to do a battery life test starting on Friday; but then needed the Sena on Saturday. Invalidated the test by using the device. I don't have two 20Ss for testing.
I have not updated to Firmware 1.4 yet; waiting to hear from others if anything that previously worked was broken by the latest 1.4.
If they said that they allowed priority changes with a new firmware update or the ability to turn TapTap off, I'd be all over it.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
I agree. "Minor bug fixes" doesn't give us any idea what to expect in a new version. 1.4 came with "Minor fug fixes in using SR10 and more". That's their typo. Not mine :-)
I certainly understand that letting the units sit for 8 days is a challenge. I'm a weekend warrior at best. So, it was very easy for me to stumble across the battery drain issue (regardless of the cause). If I was using the units daily, it would have been some time before discovering it. Here's hoping it was just the documentation in the box pressing the jog dial and not one of the other possible causes.
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Ok. Here's what I just reported to the Sena engineer:
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I just checked both of my 20S units and they are both reporting a high battery level. Here's the individual status:
XXXXXXX15: Unit charged on 5/7/15 and still reporting "battery level is high"/LED flashes 4 times on power up. This is after 7 days sitting on top of the box
XXXXXXX17: Unit charged on 5/3/15 and still reporting "battery level is high"/LED flashes 4 times on power up. This is after 11 days sitting on top of the box
At this point, the only thing I can think of that would cause the battery to originally drain within 8 days is the jog dial being pressed by the documentation in the box. I honestly don't believe the docs were pressing hard enough, but that (in the box vs on the box) is the only difference between the fast drain time and the latest test.
The only other possible causes that I can think of would be a false "full charge" blue LED indicator or incorrect battery level monitoring falsely detecting a low battery and shutting down. But, at this point, my units seem to be holding a charge while powered off. At least one for a week and the other for 11 days to date. I'll continue to monitor the battery level while on top of the box until I have to use the units, which will end the powered off battery test..
Please do continue the test on the units you mentioned and let me know the result.
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I should mention that, during the first 4 days (5/3 to 5/7) of the second powered off battery test, I stacked the boxes the units were stored in. This may explain why one was "medium" and one was still "high" after 4 days. The "medium" battery level unit *may* have been the one on the bottom, but I don't actually know that to have been the case. If it was, the box on top may have supplied enough pressure to push the jog dial. That doesn't explain why *both* units were dead in a week (4/25 to 5/3) during the first test though. Maybe I was just unlucky the first time and there was enough pressure in both boxes to press the jog dial. I'm not sure about anything at this point. In any case, I will NOT be storing the units in the box anymore and will continue to keep an eye on this.
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Keith, do you think we can put the "turned off" battery life issue to rest? Is there any possibility that you can extend the test out to a month or more?
It sounds as if the batteries in your units are exonerated from being the cause. But maybe the charging indicator was misleading you?
I've found the blue light to not be totally reliable when indicating battery charge. Sometimes, it stayed red after a 12 hour overnight charge. Sometimes it turned blue after only a few hours.
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Hi Ken, I'm not ready to put the "turned off" battery life issue to rest just yet. I won't be confident that this isn't an issue until I've gone through at least a few cycles of charging them after use and then letting them sit for 1+ weeks. I've had my 2 original 14XXXXX and 2 replacement 15XXXXX units totally drained when I checked them after 14 and 8 days respectively while powered off and in the box. So, it seemed pretty consistent.......as was my storing them in the box. I'll leave the units turned off and on top of he box until I need to use them. The longest I can commit to continue this test is 1-2 more weeks, which will be pushing 1 month.
I haven't had the issue of the LED staying red for several hours. I'd say two hours max before the LED turned blue. Which is inline with Sena's stated 2.5 hour charge time.
By the way, I just got the following response from the Sena engineer:
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I am testing my unit after fully charged.
I used the 20S for several minutes sometimes and turn off from 1 week ago.
Now, the battery level is still high.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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I guess I will; chime in.
I hadf issues with my original S20 I was first to order it via Avicious cycle . battery seemed fine. but i had Hello Sena issues it was RMA'ed by Sena I have a newer one 16xxxxx version i believe I just rode my motorcycle today for the first time in 2 weeks due to rainy cold weather. when I used it I was listening to music, checked it today over 2 weeks will be 3 weeks this fri and I still show 70-100% battery now I do make a point of shutting it down when I am not using it
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Keith, down here in Texas, it's rained so much that I haven't ridden more than a few minutes at a time for the past several weeks. I haven't put my 20S on a charger, either. Battery level is still "high", according to the Sena lady. So I'm believing that the 20S battery drain while the unit is turned OFF is not an issue. I'm still using firmware 1.3, by the way. From Sena's explanation of their firmware update, 1.4 doesn't address any of our issues.
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Hi Ken,
Hope everything is ok for you and yours in Texas with all the rain.
At this time, I'm inclined to agree with you that 20S battery drain while powered off is NOT an issue.
I've checked both of my 20S units daily. When I power them on, I'm still getting 4 red LED flashes and "battery level is high" from the Sena lady in response to my "check battery" command. I then power them off again immediately. There has been no other use of the units. This is after fully charging one on 5/3/15 and the other on 5/7/15 (approaching a month ago now). They have been left powered off sitting on top of the box. At this point, I can only blame the rapid powered off battery drain I've experienced on the documentation possibly pressing the jog dial while stored in the original packaging. However, given that I've experienced this rapid powered off battery drain 5 times across 4 different units (two 14XXXXXX and two 15XXXXXX units), I'm going to keep tracking this through at least a few more charging cycles before I count on them as "grab and go" vs. "grab and charge" devices.
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Just FYI. I just did my daily battery check on both units. The unit last recharged on 5/3/15 is now giving 3 LED flashes and responding with "Battery level is medium". So, it lost at least 30% of its charge in 4 weeks and 2 days while powered off the vast majority of the time. The 30% is based on what the user's manual says about the number of LED flashes and % of battery charge remaining:
4 flashes = High, 70~100%
3 flashes = Medium, 30~70%
2 flashes = Low, 0~30%The other unit last recharged on 5/7/15 is still giving 4 LED flashes and "Battery level is high".
I'm estimating that the total powered on time over this period has been less than 15 minutes for each unit. It only takes about 30 seconds to power them up, check the battery level and power them down again. And that's ALL that was done with the units during that period of time.
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In a weird way I'm glad I found this thread/forum. Never had a communicator in my 30 years of riding. I too am surprised about a couple things; Mine goes from fully charged to dead just sitting on my shelf in a week. I've got the latest firmware 1.4 and have a unit number in the 150XXXXXX… It seems to be fine during a typical riding day for me.. up to 10ish hours and will charge from dead in a few hours. Then range when talking to someone is interesting. My buddy and I did a test we kept talking as I exited the Freeway (off-ramp that exits down) while he continued on. As soon as I got below the highway where I could see him, we lost contact. I would say we weren't more than several hundred yards apart… So a bit disappointed in the "shelf life" of the battery and the lack of distance. If this isn't normal what I experience, then I'd like to know. If its par for the course with the 20s so be it…
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Well, the fully charged to dead in a week is what I have experienced until this last recharge. Both units have managed at least 4X that time and counting since the last recharge....for whatever reason. I have a suspicion that I'll experience the rapid powered off battery drain again. But, we'll see.
Regarding the range, I've found them to be very "line of sight" sensitive. Sena range claims always stipulate "in open terrain":
http://www.sena.com/product/intercoms/20s/
I didn't test the range, but a friend running an SMH5 (430 yard claim) and my 20S (1.2 mile claim) got several hundred yards apart and still talked no problem. However, a twist in the road putting a hillside between us decreased the range quickly. First with static but usable and then dropping the call completely. But, that wasn't much of an issue. Overall, I can't really complain about the range. And I should get better performance when paired with another 20S.
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Just let mine set for about 4 weeks due to all the rain we had in Houston and they are still showing full charge. I used one today and it was pretty much fully charged. 1500xxx serials with latest firmware.
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