Intercom range 20S to 20S
A friend and I each got a 20S recently. We went out for a ride recently and were amazed at how short the range was on these. We experienced significant breakup of transmissions at more than about 1/4 mile between us, while line of site between us was clear and unobstructed. Both antennae were up. Is this what others are seeing? My understanding is the range is supposed to be up to 2 km (1.2 miles) in open terrain. We didn't see anywhere near this on straight, flat, unobstructed roads.
Allan
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Hello Allen
I have the new 20s and two older SMH10's. I did a range test recently with the SMH10's and found that in an unobstructed line of sight seting the reception started to break up at 400 metres. Both units had the latest firmware installed and fully charged batteries. I was very disappointed at these results. This is much lower than their claimed up to 900 metres.
I know this does not answer your question but I will shortly be testing my new 20S with a friend who also has one and see what the actual range for the 20S is.
Cheers Kym
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A friend and I experienced even more poor performance out of our 20S units. We only got clear communication at a range of 50-60 meters (minimum following distance @ 60mph). We would start getting breakup after that. On a straight, flat section of road with clear line of sight, we would completely lose the connection in much less than half a mile, whereas with the SMH10, I could often maintain a conversation at a greater distance, even lacking line of sight.
Again, both antennas were up, and my 20S, at least, has the latest firmware.
What is up with this, Sena?
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Same issue here.
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Same issue here. have a prepaid label ready to go to refund my unit, was hoping sena had some type of resolution.
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I used my 20s for the first time today. I was excited because I was using the original Blueant Interphone which had a range of about 400-500 meters line of sight and about 200 meters obstructed view, ie around corners with hills in the way and now I was going to a unit which boasted a 2km line of sight range only to be extended the more 20s's you connected! Well I was quickly disappointed when the best line of sight I could get was about 400 meters and around bends the range dropped to about 50 meters! What was worse was when riding in a group with 3 units connected when unit #1 and #3 were riding together at the front of a 7 bike train and I was at the back of it about 400 meters away units #1 and #3 could no longer communicate until I (unit #2) caught back up to them!
On top of that when we did totally lose connection, due to being about 250 meters apart through some twisties with hills the silence was replaced with a loud annoying double beep every 5 seconds which I couldn't turn off with any button push on the unit, needless to say this beep is very distracting and dangerous which trying to concentrate on riding the bends!
I've sent them a letter but I've read in these very forums that Sena isn't that good at getting back to their customers complaints. If that's the case I will be returning it for a interphone which has worked great for me in the past!
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Range is abysmal compared to our old smh10's. I really hate these 20s units.
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I have been using my 20s dual kit that I got back in June serial number 150308xxx and the range is really not what I expected.
Units updated to firmware 1.4.1
Today I lost communication with my friend when two cars came in between us on a straight road, maybe 200m between us at max. on open roads I typically loose communication after 400m, on occasions it will break up even when my friends is right behind me.
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I have the same issue. My buddy and i have s20's and start losing communication after 100 yards and its painful because sometimes in big groups we ride its nice to have the lead and rear guy being able to talk which is obsolete with these. The range gets even worse when you add another s20 to the mix. This issue as well as the intercom trash can noise with 3 or more paired is annoying and makes the s20 only worth 100 dollars in my mind. The intercom was the entire reason I bought it.
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We have the same problem. Six units in our group. Maximum range 400-500 meters with clear sight.. On the box it stands 2000 meters.
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We have the same problem. Six units in our group. Maximum range 400-500 meters with clear sight.. On the box it stands 2000 meters.
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Make sure 8-way intercom is enabled with all connected units for groups over 4
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I am a long time SMH10 user and bought 20s units to fit on two new helmets (me C3/partner Nolan). I looked at the feature set and found it to be quite an advancement from the SMH10 and stuff I could use. If they said the had the same range and audio quality as the SMH10, I probably still would have bought them. But Sena claimed better on both counts and it isn't. I have experienced these units for several rides now and I'm not happy.
Audio IS better, if your partner is within 10 meters or so. After that it degrades rapidly and isn't usable much more than 1/8 mile.
Can we expect some firmware mod to fix all this (that would be the happiest answer) ? Or do we just have to move on and do something else? As it is, these units are nearly unusable. Where can I go for resolution?
Have S/Ns 150700177,150700178
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To get the advertised range under ideal conditions the units are daisy chained together and utilize each unit in the chain to relay forward and back. The rear rider talking to the front rider for instance is not actually talking directly to him but through each of the riders in between which relay the signal forward until it reaches the lead. For multiple units daisy chained together you have to be riding in the order of the chain to get the most range. 400 meters between two units clear line of sight is about max. Adding a rider to the chain adds another 400 meters and so on. Going around curves with obstructions will break the chain unless there is clear sight between each individual rider. So for instance rider 1 is in sight of rider 2, rider 3 is in sight of rider 2, rider 4 is in sight of rider 5, and so forth, everything should be hunky dory and you may get to the advertised range. That being said, if any one rider loses sight of the rider ahead of him, ie: a curve, then the chain breaks and riders behind cannot talk beyond the rider that lost visual. More than 4 riders - all have to have 8-way intercom enabled and antennas up. All the manufacturers use this daisy chain approach to get their max range.
I have no problems with the range. 400 meters is about max between two units. With two of us if I can see him in the mirror we are good. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Bluetooth is defined as short range line of sight only. To expect more than that is unrealistic.
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Ken Kimari, thanks for the detailed response. Of course, the promo material and spec for the 20s, to the best of my knowledge, made no ref to daisy chain hence the potential buyer would assume that was between two units. At least that is the assumption I made. A bit of exagerated advertising me thinks.
Oh, don't think I get much more than 100 meters. I think I could find 400 useful so there must be something about my config or the way I use them.
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I Agree the advertising is somewhat misleading. All the manufacturers of bt headsets do it unfortunately. 0 -
I still don't agree this is good enough. My box does say 2km/1.2mi intercom one place, on another and on the website it says "up to those figures". However 400m is 20% of advertised range!! I understand that you may advertise best possible scenario, but I would expect it to get 50-75% range on average, not 20-30%. The image on the box also shows the range to be between two sets, not daisy chained. I have some past experience with the SMH10 that the 20s is technically replacing, the added range was one of the reasons I went for the 20s. The SMH10 has a better actual range than the 20s, despite having a much shorter claimed/advertised range. After I updated my sets to firmware 1.5 and did a full reset of the units, there was an improvement, I guess 6-800m clear line of site before it started to break up, but I was only able to get a friend with me for testing once since the update, but the verdict was that I had to be able to see him to talk to him. In most cases this is a range I can accept when just riding with a friend, but I see issues if you are say first and last bike in a group. I would also expect these things to work if I was I front of a semi-truck and my friend was behind it, so that even if we did not see each other we would still have communication. 0 -
Egil. I certainly understand your frustration. Without getting in too deep with how radio communication works BT operates at a very high frequency at very low power. Because of that anything that gets in the way of the signal will significantly impair it. All Bluetooth units do that, not just Sena. It is what it is - the rules of electromagnetic propagation is pretty limiting for Bluetooth. If you want more range then you have to go to a two-way radio setup, lower frequencies and more power to get around your issues. Even that said, the manufacturers of FRS two-way radios also overstate their range claims of 20 to 30 miles when the reality is only a couple of miles. Yes, under ideal conditions, say mountaintop to mountaintop, you could get the range they state but it's not realistic. I know it's a bummer but anything Bluetooth will not have exceptional range no matter what the claims are.
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Egil,
I would say to you give a try to the new Scala Packtalk. They created a mesh network called DMC that solves this chain issue.
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Fellow riders, We need your help!
Please go to this thread
http://support.sena.com/entries/54448250
And show your support in this issue, by posting your comment / experience, Bad and good stories are welcome.
Then go to the SENA help desk
http://support.sena.com/requests/new
and formally request a ticket be issued about this.
If we rally together, we may be able to fix, this BEEPS issue before it kills some one you love.
PLEASE SUPPORT SHAWN PRIEBE
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Pactalk is an option but it still has range limitations, a very steep learning curve and $$$$. Some of the chain issue solved but not range. Also everyone has to have one of these units to take advantage of the features. Like I said there is no way to get around the range issue because of the physics. They all have to have some way to relay the signal to each other to create additional range - That is what a mesh network does and what daisychaining does. Without that 400 meters or so is the rule between two units without more power, but more power means a larger battery which means a larger unit . Keeping the battery small would mean less talk time - a conundrum for the manufacturers. Web Bike World has an excellent review if you are interested.
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Using DMC it can be up to 5 km (with 4 riders). It seems to be a huge improvement compared with the 1.6km in a bluetooth (g4, g9, g9x). I know that a mesh network is using a chain but the way that they do that is better than other chains that the order matter.
About the $$, it is almost the same price of Sena 20S. Am I wrong?
However, G4, G9 and G9X also uses bluetooth and all of them have a better range than my Sena had. So, doesn't seems correct blame only the physics.
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We are starting to devolve into a Mercedes vs BMW debate here and that is not my intent. Yes mesh solves many of the daisychain issues like I previously said and, by the way, I don't like daisychain either - its a PITA but I usually ride with one or two others so the issue is generally moot for me. Everyone in the group would have to get onboard and buy the Pactalk to take advantage of the mesh feature - not something financially feasible for some. Do we constantly throw down money for the latest and greatest tech? Most of us don't. BT tech in this area is always changing and you should buy or stay with what is within your budget and what works for your situation. If Scala, U-clear or some other manufacturer has what appeals to you then go for it by all means.
Once again advertising can be misleading as others have found out so I would be skeptical about those range claims unless you had an opportunity to test it out yourself. Sure you could get more range between units. 400m is not hard and fast rule - some have more and some have less but 400 seems to be a reliable range - beyond that is a bonus. I've gotten 1/2 mile with my 20s but I had elevation and a very clear line of sight. Line of sight is a limiting factor with all BT units no matter what they say. You have to keep in mind what these things have been developed for; communication between passengers, between two riders, and as the tech evolved, riders in a group - not for long range. If you want reliable long range go to two way radio - much farther reach and an unlimited number of users in the group.
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No, I'm not starting a Mercedes vs BMW debate. I was just talking about why I think that Packtalk might be an option for some users. I'm not saying that it is perfect for all riders or that everybody needs to change to the latest and greatest tech.
I was talking about differences between technologies (not about brands) and why I disagree about blaming only physics and BT (because there are other products than can have a better range using the same technology). I tried Sena 20S and sold it because I got really disappointed with the range and the daisychain.
After having the Sena 20S (and use with more than 4 people) that I started to agree with the decision of most companies to limit the number of users, it allow a better and less frustrating experience.
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I don't disagree with what you said. It really comes down to personal preference and what your specific needs are. There is no one size fits all solution with BT. What really ires me is that each manufacturer requires everyone to subscribe to their version of BT to enjoy all the features of their product thus locking in everyone to use their stuff. Sure, there are universal intercom functions but that limits functionality in other areas.
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Universal intercom? shut up and take my money! :-)
I think that we will never see it...
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I think you are right my friend. One can dream though, right?
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So here's MY source for the dream:
1) I was amazed when the SMH10 came out. They demonstrated remarkable range for the bluetooth I knew which was limited to external devices a few feet away from the connected computer, phone, whatever. Using bluetooth for an intercom with the great range these things exhibited was to me pretty amazing.
2) I remember when 2400 baud was the "theoretical maximum" for a modem on the phone system and i could only afford a 1200 and then some supercomputing center gave me a 19000). It got better. And then we started doing things a whole different way (like what we're doing now).
rock on SENA. This was all an excellent idea and your feature set is awesome. Now please make it work as advertised in the next firmware upgrade :=)
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Ah! All makes me dream about the days back when companies sold us FRS radios mounted on our helmets. What nerds we were!
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Chatterbox... LOL
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Ken. I did work with aircraft VHF and UHF radios 10-20 years ago, so I know radio communications and frequencies, range and transmitting power. I will admit BT is something I don't know too much about but a low power high frequency system has a limited range. Still, if you sell a product with a 2000m range that only has a 400m range, that's a problem. tapajos. I can manage with the range I have now, no need for a new product. 0
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