Group Intercom (from 3 to 8) - far from acceptable
Hi everyone,
Recently I've had the chance to use the 20s with one of my buddies as I've bought a dual pack. During the first 2 weeks we tested it as much as possible and we reached the conclusion that:
1. the 2km "promised" on the box are in fact less than 1km.
2. there's no difference between antenna up or down - or at least not noticeable (other people were asked to use it also)
3. the radio works only in the city - as soon as you get out of it there's just a very annoying hissing in our helmets.
4. Radio RDS function (set on European mode since we are in Europe) is not working. As soon as we're out from the city, where we manually set the frequency for a(ny) channel, that's it ... nothing changes when we reach the next city and where the same radio channel has a different frequency. If we use a car the rds function works well.
5. Many times the music (from the phone) gets rapidly interrupted when we are on intercom mode (2 way intercom). Sena says there are 2 bluetooth built in the 20s and this is why intercom can function at the same time with music/radio. But somehow, music connection is frequently affected by the intercom especially when you reach the rage limit and get disconnected/reconnected to the second user.
HOWEVER, the biggest problem came along with the 2nd dual pack which arrived for 2 other bike buddies. (who, of course, were pretty impressed with the 20s when seeing and trying out the first dual pack). As soon as we connected the 3rd 20s, and a simple 3way group was connected:
1. A popcorn, drum, crackling, static noise (as you all called it in your previous posts) started to get us crazy. Sometimes is in the background but most of the times is so loud that you wish you never got connected with the other 2. This also makes communication extremely difficult. HD audio or not we should still be able to understand each other, right?
2. The voices are distorted and very difficult to understand. I need to ask the other one to repeat what he said ... and eventually he tells me that the danger passed and I was just lucky I didn't fall since there was a big hole in the road. (etc)
3. The microphones remain active when a group is activated! Initially we thought it was just one mic picking up some sounds/noise (like a breath) and stays active but couldn't identify it. Than we realised that if any of us accelerated strongly all others could hear his engine. Above 100km/h I cannot hear my own engine so the noise was coming from the speakers inside my helmet. Also, the wind noise was amplified by 3! (if the microphones are active that means some of the background noise comes from my buddies through their mics to my speakers + the wind noise that my helmet has - AAAAAARGGGGHHHHH! unbearable!!!! Not to mention that because of this any music or radio will remain at a low volume since the intercom is prior to music/radio.
To conclude:
1. Please tell us if anyone found any solution(s) to the above mentioned.
2. Sena, how can you accept this situation when everyone is complaining about this for more than a year? Personally I payed all this money for a top quality product because we are 8 riders and we really wanted to be able to communicate and use all the other features. What do we do now? it's impossible to ride for several hours in these conditions. Intercom is not working as described! Did we pay more that 800euro (2 dual packs) for a product that we cannot use?
Cristian (Romania)
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We have two SMH10, which work perfect when talking to each other, absolutely beautiful sound quality, very very little wind noise, BUT when we connect to another couple using SENA 10U we get A LOT OF WIND NOISE which makes communication useless, this happens at higher speeds, and either couple will get beautiful sound quality when disconnected from the other couple, it is the connecting of the SMH10 to the 10U that ruins the communication. All sets are configuered to the "wind noise reduction" function. It's as if connection beteween the two sets would disactivate wind noise reduction . . . .
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Hi,
We have a group of riders with 20S and we are experiencing exactly the same symptoms as Cristian on all points. (Thanks for articulating that so clearly.)
We are also very disappointed in the 20S for this reason as well.
Sena, we see no response on this topic in over a month. What is your solution to these issues?
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We've experienced the "Open Microphone" phenomenon with just two of us traveling together in Intercom. This resulted in the MP3 or XM radio audio for both of us (independent music, not shared) being muted for over the 350 mile trip. It's like the microphone sensitivity is too high. We both ride Harleys, but we don't have loud pipes. I've searched, but cannot find a microphone level adjustment in the 20S. Seems like there should be one.
Four of us bought 20Ss two years ago. We got the very first ones shipped to the USA. None of us have ever experienced distorted intercom communication.
Popcorn, drum beat rhythmic crackling . . . we experience it almost every trip! It's not nearly as prevalent with only 2 in intercom communication. It's can be HORRIBLE with 3 or 4! So bad, that we end up turning intercom OFF for an hour or two. Sometimes, the drum/popcorn sounds go away on their own after a few minutes of annoying all of us. Sometimes its like they'll never end. It isn't isolated to any one unit of the four in intercom communication. We've tested while on the road . . . any one of us could turn his Sena OFF and the other three were still annoyed by the noise. We also tested in a controlled environment (the family room in my home). All four of us, sitting on the couch and chairs with helmets on our heads. CRACKLE, POPCORN, DRUMBEAT . . . no getting away from it. So it isn't a "range" issue.
By the way, in searching for Scala PacTalk comments and reviews elsewhere on the Internet, there are complaints about drumbeat and crackling noises too. Scala doesn't have a consumer forum where users can talk about their various experiences. I guess they don't want to know.
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I must say that I / we (6 of us) have been using the Scala Packtalk for a little over 5 months now and it's been brilliant. Perhaps we're lucky but we've had no issue with drumbeat/crackling noise at all (and don't miss it either!! lol)
We used 20s prior and hence why I'm here - we're wanting to put our senas on our dirt helmets so that we are at least using them instead of them just sitting in the garage and truly being a wasted investment. It sounds like the popcorn/drum sounds have not been addressed, however I am wondering if the latest updates on 20s allow for the following:
When the 6 of us are together (group intercom)...
Can we each listen to our own music/FM radio in the background/Audio Multi-Task?
Can we start/stop music or FM radio while talking?
Can we change tracks/stations while talking?
Can we make/receive a phone call while talking (don't do this much but do like to ability)?
We are currently able to do all of the above at any time with the scala Packtalks, be it just 3 of us or all 6 of us, but never figured out how (or if even possible) to do it on the sena 20s.
Any advice would certainly be appreciated.
Thank you
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Ken, the "Scala consumer forum" is exactly where I found some answers and I have to mention that I was really impressed on how responsive is Scala with its clients. Here's a link where I wrote about my/our story but the forum is full with info about Intercoms in general (mainly Scala). Safety Bike is my profile name there: http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/scala-rider-packtalk.1043261/page-3
Trey Contour,
- Can we each listen to our own music/FM radio in the background/Audio Multi-Task? You can BUT since the "open microphone" effect cannot be avoided in a 3 to 8 group the music/radio volume will be very very low. Like on the Packtalk, the 20S functions have priorities. Try to follow this scenario: 4 riders paired in a 'Daisy Chain Connection' (this is how I saw it's called this zig-zag pairing). All 4 have a smart phone in their pocket which is also paired with the 20S. They use the phones also for music. So they are all using 3 options in the same time and the priority is: 1. Phone Calls, 2. Group Intercom, 3. Stereo Music. As Group Intercom is active, the “open microphone” will prevent the music to get louder when nobody is saying anything and they’ll just hear it in the background. It is impossible to LISTEN to music as you will also hear the engines of your fellows, breaths, wind noise picked up by all mics etc. If in a 2 way connection, the HD quality will let you really listen to your music and when you's say something the volume will decrease giving priority you your intercom discussion.
- Can we start/stop music or FM radio while talking? YES. There are several methods:
- Start?Stop the music: Press the jog dial for 1 second until you hear a double beep then release it. This works with the iPhones. I have no clue with the Samsung or other Android phones nice I don't have one. FM radio works the same but instead of pressing on the jog dial the Phone Button (back button) must be pressed 1".
- Start?Stop the music: Double tap (or 1 press on Ambient button) your 20s or on the helmet (near the 20s) and "the lady in your helmet" will ask you to "say a command". "Music" or "Stereo Music" voice command should do the trick. However this depends on how correctly you can pronounce. I'm not a native English speaker and sometimes for me this doesn't work so I prefer the 1st option. FM radio will work with "FM radio" command.
- Last and most dangerous method which I DO NOT recommend is to play/stop it directly from your player. Personally I keep my phone visible, on the handlebar, and it's not too difficult during a street ride. On a dirt bike, on dirt track/roads, I think it's even more dangerous to try this :)
- Can we change tracks/stations while talking? YES. Voice command: “Next”/“Previous” (activate voice command like shown above) or press and turn the jog dial (while in radio/music mode) CW or CCW to go next/previous track/radio station.
- Can we make/receive a phone call while talking (don't do this much but do like to ability)? YES. (http://www.sena.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/QSG_Sena_20s_v1.4_en_20150514.pdf)
I hope I was clear enough :)
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Now, to get back to the subject :)
First of all I would say that I really regret not discovering the Scala Packtalk before purchasing the 20S. Indeed they also have problems and bugs BUT:
- the DMC (Dynamic Mesh Communication) is in my opinion exactly what we need https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPVGMjnQCpU
- Scala representatives are really staying in touch with their users, give them solutions, listen to their complaints and do their best to get the problem fixed. (check out the "advrider" forum and you'll see what I mean)
However, since we are a group of 7 riders using the 20S (and I regret convincing them all to buy it) not all of them are willing to give up the Sena and go for the Palktalk. We decided to go on using the Sena and try to find a way to use it efficiently and enjoy it while on our bikes.
One of the most important opinions I received on Scala forum, from an experienced guy who is using also a Sena device (SMH10), was that the Bluetooth Daisy Chain Connection works like that no matter the intercom brand. Everyone, except for the DMC users, is complaining about the Daisy Chain as it is noisy, gets broken once a rider is out or off, prevents the user to listen to music/radio, has a low sound quality (including sound filtering, compression etc) during a 3+ intercom group. But how could we know this before paying for it? If you have no experience with BT intercoms you’ll never know what a crackling interference noise is unless you install it on a helmet and find minimum 2 other users to test it. In a pair of 2 it works perfectly fine.
So what I would suggest to you all, while waiting for Sena to help us with a/any solution is to try and get very comfortable with how this gadget works and eliminate any “random button taps”! Here’s what I did during the past weeks.
Firstly I took all 7 helmets for 1 week and tried to test as many scenarios/situation I could think of while keeping the same group order when we ride. Our biggest problem was that if anything happened while riding nobody would know what to do to fix the problem. Everyone kept single/double tapping the jog dial and nobody could understand who is (dis)connecting to whom and why. So with the helmets on my (long) table:
Helmet 1(friend 1) - (friend 2)Helmet 2(friend 1) - (friend 2)Helmet 3(friend 1) - (friend 2)Helmet 4(friend 1) - (friend 2)Helmet 5(friend 1) - (friend 2)Helmet 6(friend 1) - (friend 1)Helmet 7
- Rule No. 1: 1 & 2 go in Intercom Pairing Mode, 2 taps the jog dial and they connect. 2 & 3 go in Intercom Pairing Mode, 3 taps the jog dial and they connect. 3 & 4 go in Intercom Pairing Mode, 4 taps the jog dial and they connect … and so on until the last one. When finished only the last 2 helmets are connected since they were the last ones to be pairing. Now all the others have to click 1 time in order to connect to the person behind (except the last 2). Sometimes the connection is fast other times it will take a few seconds but it works.
- Rule No. 2: Try and stick to the same group order so you’ll always know where the chain breaks and how to fix it. After a while you’ll get used and understand better what to do and when.
- Rule No. 3 : 1 click means connecting/disconnecting backwards, 2 clicks means connecting/disconnecting forward. Exception: The head and the tail have only 1 friend so they have to click only once in order to connect/disconnect to/from the adjacent person.
- Rule no. 4: If I want to disconnect myself (Helmet 4) both from 3 & 5 I hold the jog dial pressed for 2 seconds. (waiting in fact for the 2nd double beep, as the 1st double beep relates to play/stop music. Then i’ll hear a 3rd simple beep which means I am disconnected from both my front and back). To reconnect I follow rule number 2. Now, to reconnect either I follow Rule no. 2 or 3 and/or 5 can single/double tap and reconnect with me.
- Rule no. 5: 1 and 7 are always available for a new connection either Sena or NonSena intercoms.
- Rule no. 6: Most of the times we stay connected in pairs and discuss if we need and in this situation music works well. As soon as we want more riders in our discussion we bring them in 1 by 1.
- Rule no. 7: If I’m involved in phone call the chain does not break. both my friends will stay connected and will not be interrupted by my phone conversation. As soon as I finish I don’t have to press anything as I’ll get right back in the discussion automatically (If I was initially part of that intercom discussion)
- Rule no. 8: If anyone gets the message “Low battery” he will let the others know immediately. So when he will be off, both of his friends (front and rear) can pair back together and repair the chain. (The problem in this situation is that the order of the clicks will be changed. as now friend 1 is ahead and 2 is behind).
There are also other methods of creating and managing a Group Intercom (via the Phone App etc) but for the moment we will just try to keep it as simple as possible and get used to it.
Now, in my opinion the problems we all complain about cannot be solved with a Firmware update since I “feel” is more a hardware problem then a software. But I really wish Sena would react to our message, and guide us on how to proceed and teach us what we have to do. Also, based on our experiences they could try and find some solutions.
I hope things will get better but I have to admit that I am really considering the Scala Packtalk even if my group will stick to the 20S. Maybe with little steps we will all buy the Scala.
Keep in touch. :)
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Christian, thanks for your well thought-out posts. I'm still studying what you have written.
What I meant by "Scala doesn't have a forum" is that the only place to find information from their users is on other motorcycle forums. Sena has THIS forum, owned and maintained by them. Scala doesn't have such a forum. Maybe the thread from your link in the AV Rider forum will turn into a reliable place to discuss the Scala units. It appears that at least one Scala employee has discovered the thread and occasionally participates.
2-1/2 years ago, I was the main instigator for our group to buy 20S units. We pre-ordered and waited 6 months. Having experienced the "Bluetooth" mode of linking units with my previous Sena unit for a couple of years, I was prepared for the ins and outs of the devices. The range isn't what they claim, but if we get a reliable 200 yards, that's probably good enough. EVERYONE seems to be happy with just 2 20S units paired for intercom, music, GPS integration, etc. Its only when the 3rd user is connected that all are annoyed by the drum beating and the "open mic" syndrome that prevents listening to music while riding (but instead we get breathing, clearing throats, coughing, etc.).
For this reason, I've suggested that we all purchase Scala PackTalk units and retire the Senas. But after reading comments from several motorcycle forums, I'm not sure that one is better than the other. Or at least not so much better as to scrap currently-owned units to buy all new. Certainly, the Scala PackTalk has benefits that would have made their units my first choice 2-1/2 years ago. (i.e. waterproof, Mesh Network, etc.). But they hadn't developed that technology yet.
Ken
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You're 100% right, Ken! In fact what keeps me away from investing again is that both Sena and Scala are leading this segment (at least this is how I see it) and they still have to solve a lot of problems. we should just wait and teach ourselves on how they work, find their limits and of course use them in such a manner that makes us happy not mad.
Also, now it's clear to me what you meant about the forums. Indeed Sena created THIS one. But Sena is taking too much time to answer. And I saw that some of you are discussing these issues since March last year.
(By the way, I've read my comments above so please excuse me for all the mistakes. I write in English like the 20S works on Group Intercom! :)
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I just came across your comment in a Youtube video by MotoGeek Freak, Cristian. I've watched every one of his videos now. I'm even closer to pulling the trigger. By the way, your spelling and grammar are apparently much better than my first attempt to spell your name (above).
I've joined the AV Rider forum today, specifically to be able to talk openly in comparison of the two top brands.
Ken
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We may be jumping from the frying pan and into the fire, but 4 of my 5 friends have decided to give the Scala PackTalk a try. The fifth user is holding out of a link to his Harley in order to use the CB radio when riding in his other group which doesn't have Bluetooth communication. He's having to switch back and forth from a Harley wired headset to the Sena 20S headset, depending on with whom he is riding. Sena seems to be the closest to having a Harley CB solution of all Bluetooth providers. But the other four of us purchased PackTalk units. (The 3rd rider joined us yesterday with his purchase).
The biggest reason for the purchase (at a cost of $280 each) is because of two of the issues that you noted, Cristian. First is the popcorn/drumbeat noise. We've put up with that for long enough. The second is because when 3 or more are in intercom, our music goes away and there's no way to bring it back. AND OF COURSE, the DMC mode looks very user friendly. (I'm positive that Sena is developing their own; else they'll be left in the dust. I have originated several requests for tech support; but after they tell me to do a factory reset and fault reset, Sena tech support goes silent.
Apparently, the technology for "DMC" didn't exist in 2013 when we ordered our Sena units; else we'd probably have chosen Cardo Scala instead of the Sena 20S.
Our units arrive Tuesday and Wednesday; we'll be burning the midnight oil to get over the PackTalk learning curve before our upcoming 12-day camping trip that starts on June 22. I'm hoping we have a good experience; but just in case, we're all taking our 20Ss.
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Hello All - Hello Cristian Nicolau!!!! Your write-up is very good - the best I have found so far in describing how these darn things work!
I have 2 younger boys (ages 5 and 8) - and I have a sidecar - so we ride together. I bought 2 pairs of 20S so the 3 of us could talk, and my father-in-law goes with us sometimes. So - picture a 5, 8, and 74 year old trying to figure out the tap sequence - sheesh. :( Waaaaay to complicated for them!
I have tried using the SENA iPhone App - and making the intercom group there, but it is flaky and seems to have a significant distance problem. So after spending considerable $$ and time trying to figure these things out - I am really bummed.
EXCEPT - now that I have seen Cristian Nicolau's post - I am thinking I could do all the tapping BEFORE we start the ride, and just hope that no one has to make any changes. The open MIC issue would be nice to fix, but but if I could get us all intercom'd up and working CONSISTENTLY I would be happy with just that.
Thanks for your post above - I am going to do some playing now...
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We are a group of people in Sweden who are equally dissatisfied with the 20s when being more than 2 people. In fact, it's really shitty when riding solo too. Eardrum tearing without plugs, barely hearable with plugs, all sorts of software and connections issues. I sure hope Sena fixes these issues but I'm betting they won't, because it's already been on the market for a couple of years and it's still alpha quality - which means they aren't listening. It's probably a management issue, engineers will inherently want to perfect what they do, and managers only want new features
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Hello guys, It's been almost one year since my last message so here I am. I've been testing this expensive gadget during the last season and now, in 2017, after all the updates (I think 7 of them) I have to be as sincere as possible with myself and admit that ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM GOT FIXED by Sena. And I bet it will be like this until the moment when this intercom will be replaced by something completely new.
So Sena is a huge disappointment and not because of the technical problems but because of their method of ignoring us, all the users who paid for their invention.
If you're reading this message and didn't buy the 20s and you're considering to buy it .... FORGET IT! just look somewhere else and READ and ASK a hundred times before you pay for anything.
Ken, if you still get these messages and if you got the chance to try the Cardo Scala Rider or Packtalk or anything else, please tell us about it.
Thanks.
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Hi,
We had all the same problems with the 20S as described above. With only two 20s radios, in HD mode it worked fine and you could listen to music. Add the third or more 20s together and the open mic problem made listening to music impossible. The popcorn sound was intermittent and bad as well.
With no fix/response from Sena, my group sold off our 20S radios and purchased the Cardo Scala Packtalk and they have been great. In DMC mode the channel is completely quiet when everyone stops speaking and you can listen to music in the background as intended. Moveing to the Packtalk has been great for our riding group.
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I'm still getting emails alerting me of threads here in which I participated. I wasn't going to mention our PackTalk results on the Sena forum. But since asked, we all sold our 20S units on eBay, so they weren't a total loss.
After 2 years of struggling with the 20S units, the PackTalk devices have been extremely satisfying. Nothing is perfect, including PackTalk, but they work so remarkably well that I'm happy with my decision to give up on Sena. The final straw was with one of the new firmware releases that caused music (or whatever one listens to when no one in intercom) being totally blanked out if a 3rd person joins the group. I was the first to report the problem. For weeks, Sena told me that they couldn't duplicate the problem and I should do a factory reset. The issue was 100% repeatable without fail! I gave up. Finally, after buying PackTalk units and using them, a new firmware release comes out with the issue fixed.
I think Sena had been too busy developing new products at that time to fool with 20S unit users that were complaining. All they had to do was to get several people with 20S units out riding together for a few hours and they'd have experienced all the issues we were complaining about.
Response/support over the 2 years we owned ours went from great to dismal. The units were very buggy and they seemed to care less and less. Too bad. They held such promise at first. Maybe their 30K will be a better product that they'll support. But we like the PackTalk and probably won't be changing back in the foreseeable future.
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Hi,
I was wondering if someone can please comment if the issues here are all with the 20S, and not the 20S-EVO. (ie, is the EVO better, or when people are mentioning 20S here, does it include the EVO)?
Thanks
Adam
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I'm sure everyone was talking about the 20s and not the EVO. I don't think the EVO came out until later 2017 and all the posts so far were before mid 2017.
If you do end up purchasing the EVO, please let us know if you are experiencing the same problems as we are. I made a video about my experience:
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Hi Eugene. Thanks. I'll do a bit more research first before committing to the EVO - I've already sunk a considerable amount of cash into buying the 20S pack, and I'm very reluctant to purchase anything else until I have some solid confirmation from EVO users (that are familiar with the 20S issues) that they don't have any issues with the EVO.
But if I do get my hands on an EVO - I'll post feedback here!
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I can confirm first hand: 20S-EVO has the same problem. (At least with the current firmware available), so it's pointless upgrading to a 20S-EVO just to try and resolve this particular issue.
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First time I’m using the 20s with a third rider and was shocked about the same issues. We couldn’t figure out what was causing it. After searching the internet my questions were answered.
In our scenario it is 2x 30k with a 20s rider. Same symptoms as described earlier. It sucks big time and I’m very pissed that they advertise it as connect up to 8 riders but with these problems it is not desirable to be wanting to connect with more than 2 riders.
So after 2 years sena still hasn’t addressed or replied on this issue. I sincerely believe they should change the description of their features or add a note that sound quality degraded when connecting with more than 2 riders.
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Yep, 3 x 30K in mesh - crap audio! given up and now looking to move to Cardo Systems instead ..
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It's hard for me to understand why ANYONE would still by a Sena. In my opinion, they are far inferior to Scala PackTalk.
Now, don't expect PackTalk to be perfect. People complain the same about 1k range and there are a few other annoyances . . . . but NOTHING like our almost 3-year experience the Sena 20S units. And it appears that the 30S units are just about as bad.
The six of us that got ride of the Senas 3 years or more ago are still pretty happy with the Scala PackTalks. (I'll probably get banned for this post, but it's the truth).
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