Priorities

Commenti

111 commenti

  • Allan Rosenberg
    Allan Rosenberg

    I had the same issue.  I paired my Zumo 660 based on the book.  With the firmware upgrade to 1.1 the pairing method for the gps changed.  If you check the online manual section 5.4.1 you will see a new method to pair the gps.  Once I did this it worked as it should have.  Hope this helps.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    I'll check that out, Allan.  We all paired our GPSs just as we'd done with the SMH10's and 10Rs.  The manual for the 20S looked the same.  I'll check the on-line manual for differences. 

    I did submit a Request.  Tristan has always been very prompt in replying, as she was this time.  She said for us to try pairing our smartphones first (to the 1st bluetooth phone channel in the 20S) and then pair the Zumo to the 2nd Bluetooth phone channel.  She thinks that the 2nd channel will have a lower priority than the first.  She also said that the second channel uses HFP and asked that I report back on how the Zumo does with XM radio and MP3 music paired to the second channel.   I haven't tried that yet.  

     

    Ken

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  • Jeff Dolence
    Jeff Dolence

    I purchased a new 20S on Monday 7/21/2014, went on an MSTA trip Thursday.  So far, I am very disappointed with the current results.  I recognize that Bluetooth technology was never meant for long distance transmission and found the 20S-to-20S is clear sounds great for the advertised distances.  However, I found inconsistent behavior with the 20S.  I connected my Garmin Zumo 550 GPS using the 1st  Mobile Phone pairing described in Case 2, iPhone was paired directly with the Garmin, and audio multitasking enabled.  Most of the time the GPS functions including music, prompts, route selections, and phone use  (through Garmin) completely pre-empted the intercom where the intercom attempts to re-establish connection afterwards.  In a very simple usage case, voice prompts blanked out the intercom which seemed to re-establish connection afterwards.  It was not possible to listen to music via the GPS with the intercom connected.  The only time the intercom worked correctly  and consistently with the GPS is when looking at the map without any additional functionality taking place.  Often it was not possible to re-connect to the other 20S rider until after several attempted connections even if I rode close to the other rider. 

    I am going to try to pair the GPS as the second mobile device and see if that improves the situation.  If this is a prioritization problem the manual (including v1.1) is not clear on this subject, the case studies do not explicitly call this out, and it should be updated.  Since the Zumo 550 is mono Bluetooth only, I am probably going to have to buy a Bluetooth dongle or SR10 which should solve both problems, but a pricey solution.

     

      

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  • Ken
    Ken

    You experienced exactly what we experienced on our trip.  The Garmin, having the highest priority, blanked out intercom.  With four of us on the road, all with Zumo 665s, our intercom was constantly being disrupted; sometimes never to return again no matter what we did (including turning the Senas OFF and back ON).  Occasionally, the Intercom would come back all by itself  . . . . . . 2 hours later!  

    I think they need an option:  Priority  (Intercom first or GPS first).  

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  • Allan Rosenberg
    Allan Rosenberg

    I changed my connections and have the Zumo as the second phone.  That solved all the issues you describe above.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Allan, we're still experimenting with that.  Two of our travel group are playing with different connection scenarios.  The manual gives 3 "cases" for  pairing a phone and Zumo, but doesn't explain the characteristics, advantages, or disadvantages of any of them.  

     I have paired my iPHone as the first phone (instead of the the Zumo) and it works nicely (case #1).  But I seem to lose the ability to have stereo music or XM radio from the Zumo when paired this way.   And I haven't tried this with Intercom yet because it takes 2 people with 20Ss.  

    Ken

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  • Ken
    Ken

    One of my fellow 20S unit owners and I experimented last night in a parking lot.  Wanted to know:  If the Zumo navigation is muted (a Zumo function), would it still interrupt the Sena 20S with routing instructions, alerts, etc.  

    We piddled with them for about 20 minutes.  Our conclusion is that if the Zumo Navigation is muted, a Sena 20S intercom conversation is not interrupted.  Here's how we tested:

    Both of us wearing hour helmets and in Intercom communication.  His Zumo was paired to his Sena as 1st phone.  He pressed the "Go Home" button on his Zumo.  He heard the Zumo button-press "beep".  At that moment, our intercom was interrupted for about 4 seconds.  Then it came back.  After the Zumo calculated the route and the Zumo lady spoke (to give direction), our intercom communication was interrupted again for the duration of the Zumo lady's instruction.  About 4 seconds after she finished, intercom came back.

    THEN, he muted the Zumo Navigation.  We did the same test.  When he clicked buttons, the beeps would interrupt our intercom communication for about 4 seconds each time.  When he pressed "Go Home",  he heard the beep and our intercom communication was interrupted for about 4 seconds.  BUT, during the time that the Zumo lady was probably giving her instructions that we couldn't hear because of Navigation muting, we could continue our intercom conversation.  

    It takes two people and two 20Ss to confirm our test.  Could someone else please confirm that muting Zumo Navigation will allow 20S intercom without interruption?

     

    Ken

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  • Vanisher
    Vanisher

    It will, you can also disable the beeps for key presses.. but i would like to hear the navigation.

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  • Alan Wainwright
    Alan Wainwright

    Hi Ken, I have tried your suggestion and have found that it does not interrupt the intercoms with it muted but I could not hear any voice commands from the zumo 660 did you have the same result ? for me it defeats the purpose as I would still like to hear the directions and be able to talk over the intercom.

    I have tried various configuration's and have raised a ticket with sena as the main reason I changed to these from the smh10 was to use the intercom and gps together without interruption,

    Do you have any further suggestion's

     

    Alan

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Yep, Alan.  With the Zumo navigation muted, the voice commands are muted.  I tried it again a few days ago and intercom isn't interrupted or preempted by the Zumo lady.  And I dislike this work-around, too.  But it masks the problem of the Zumo taking over the Sena with driving directions; sometimes never return without turning the Sena OFF and back ON.  Our experience was that hundreds of times between the four of us on our trip this past summer, our Senas would be interrupted by our Zumo's voice commands and intercom never came back.   The beeps, I think we can deal with; so long as the Sena intercom comes back immediately after each beep.  

    The ultimate solution would be for Sena to allow the Zumo voice commands and beeps to exist simultaneously with intercom; probably at a lower volume.   I hope they're working on this issue and the issue of the Sena dropping intercom altogether intermittently but often.  

    Vanisher, I suspected there was a "beep eliminator" in the Zumos.  The beeps are useful to confirm that the key presses were actually accepted by the Zumo; but I might try to see if I can effectively get along without them. 

    Ken

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  • Alan Wainwright
    Alan Wainwright

    Hi Ken, I agree with you that there should be an option to assign your own priority, for me the phone is the part I would use least and as I lead a lot of ride outs the intercom to me is the most important and being able to call a warning over the gps would prove invaluable to me.

    I do hope it is resolved soon, to ask another question is it only the zumos that are suffering or are the tomtoms also having the same problems overriding the intercom.

    Alan

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  • Alan Wainwright
    Alan Wainwright

    Well thanks to sena support my issue seems to be resolved.

    I was missing a critical part of the 5.4.1 setup in my owners manual at part 2, all mine says is to tap the phone button to get the blue light and hear second mobile phone pairing but it is missing the second tap of the phone button to get into gps pairing. Now I have paired it this way it all seems to be working as it should and I can talk over the nav and the beeps and also hear the other person whilst operating it.

    Looking forward to a road trip now to fully test it.

    Alan

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Yeah well, this is all great if you pair your Zumo as a GPS. But a Zumo is much more than just a GPS. It is also an MP3-player and a Phone-bridge. So pairing as a GPS is out of the question I'm afraid.  Unfortunately the ONLY option is to pair the Zumo as the 1st phone. Not the 2nd phone, ONLY the 1st phone can handle both the HFP-protocol (for navigation and phone) and the A2DP-protocol for stereo music. @Sena: correct me if I'm wrong.

    So, the current priority-issue is an accident waiting to happen !!  When I use the intercom, it means I have something to say to my buddy. Maybe even someting important !  If trying to use the intercom results in me and him fiddeling around with the buttons, getting annoyed, missing the junction we had to take, losing track of the traffic around us... you fill in the rest.

    The 20S is an intercom in the first place. So I think Seno should make it possible to either let us modify the priorities with the Divece-manager-software, or at least give the possibility to pair a device, with a lower priority than the intercom, but still having both bluetooth-protocols.

    Does Sena read this forum ? Can I expect a reaction ?

    I attached a drawing of how we paired at this moment. I can't see any other pairing-algorithm that would suffice.

     




    SenaZumoiPhone.jpg
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  • Ken
    Ken

    The first (and most important to me) feature of the Sena 20S is the ability to have good, clear, reliable rider-to-rider communication.  The 20S excels at that, except when the Zumo lady has navigation instructions or the Zumo beeps from a button push or alert.  Then, the 20S gives top priority to the Nav instructions or the beeps, totally blanking out Intercom.  

    This really stinks!

    The 20S handles all other functions very well.  If I'm listening to my XM radio, MP3, Audio Books, etc (from the Zumo) and the intercom becomes active, the Zumo volume lowers to allow Intercom to continue.  NOT SO WITH NAVIGATION OR ALERTS!  When those things occur, you lose intercom completely. 

    Yesterday, two of us were riding a 50-mile route to visit a friend in a different part of the city.  When the Zumo would tell me that a turn was upcoming, I needed to tell my friend (who also has the 20S).  But I couldn't; not using the 20S intercom.  The Zumo lady would give me the instruction to turn ahead.  About 5 - 8 seconds later, the intercom returned; only to be blanked out again by the Zumo lady repeating her Nav instruction.   Another 8 seconds after she finished, I tried to let my friend know again via the Sena.  Of course, the Zumo lady gave her final instruction to turn, blanking out the intercom yet again.   I had to quickly resort to hand signals, since the 20S had decided that I didn't need intercom and gave priority to the Zumo.   The route had many turns, making the Sena experience extremely frustrating. 

    I finally muted the Zumo navigation.  At least I could stare at my GPS to make sure I didn't miss turns and keep in intercom communication with my friend.   It's tough riding a motorcycle while staring at the Zumo.  I'd much rather use the voice navigation feature.  

    Yes, I could pair the Zumo as 2nd phone and just not use the stereo A2Dp pairing.  But that's an unacceptable work-around.    

    Sena really needs to give us the ability to have Intercom, even when the Zumo GPS is active.   It needs to multi-task with other audios; just as it multi-tasks other inputs.  

    Ken

     

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Yeah ! Sena please respond.

    Unfortunately the Zumo's (the 590 anyway) are chatterboxes. They annoyingly announce EVERY turn 1km in advance, 400mtr in advance and 20mtr in advance !  After each announcement they keep the line busy voor 5-8 seconds. This goes for MY Zumo, as well as for my buddy's Zumo, driving a few hundred meters behind me. So As soon as MY Zumo clears the line, my buddie's Zumo starts chattering. As soon as his Zumo clears the line again we have traveled half a kilometer again, at which point MY Zumo starts 'stating the bloody obvious" again. All this time no intercom is possible !

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  • Marc Woo
    Marc Woo

    @Ken and Marc: The 20S has a pairing mode called GPS Pairing where it will allow you listen to navigation directions from a GPS while having an intercom conversation at the same time. While you are having an intercom conversation, GPS directions will be heard in the background. When you are not having an intercom conversation then GPS directions will be heard at a normal volume. Please refer to the 20S User's Guide on how to pair your GPS to the 20S using GPS Pairing. Note: GPS Pairing uses only the HFP Bluetooth profile so you won't be able to listen to stereo music from the GPS.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Thank you, Sena for your comments.  

    Yes, we understand that.  If the GPS were solely used as a GPS-only and not for MP3 audio, XM Radio audio, and Audio Books, pairing as a GPS would suffice.  But our GPS units are much more than just a simple bare-bones GPSs.  (I don't know anyone personally that doesn't use the GPS for the full features including stereo).    So pairing our $750 GPS units as simple bare-bones GPS units for navigation-only is not a desired pairing.   If the Sena GPS pairing could also serve as A2DP (stereo) as well as HFP, it would be fine.  I assume there are hardware factors that make this impossible.   

    So instead, to get full use out of our expensive Garmin units, we must pair them as Phone 1 or lose their features and benefits.  

    Surely your developers can devise a method in the firmware to answer the phone when it rings and make it 1st priority; but reduce the 1st phone priority such that Intercom is the highest the rest of the time.  Or give us the ability in the iPHone app to alter the phone versus intercom priority.  

    Marc and I are only two users of many that need something done in this area.  Everyone I know uses their Zumo GPS units for stereo audio; but don''t want the intercom to go blank every time the Zumo beeps or says something.  It's a serious drawback for us.  Solve this issue for us and the Sena 20S will be perfection with its features.  

     

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Hi Sena. Yeah, I fully agree with Ken. He explained it correctly. Furthermore I would like to stress the danger involved. If my budy uses the intercom to warn me for something, and the Zumo starts talking at the same time, resulting in me fiddling around with all the buttons, not seeing the danger, or even slamming into the rider in front of me, because he DID see the danger... Traffic nowadays is challenging enough as it is.

    I know, I know: I can't legally blame Sena for having an accident. But wouldn't it be nice if an accident were prevented, because nobody was distracted ?

    Anyway, I also mentioned the priority-issue in a Sena-request (#54869), in which I got a pretty dissapointing answer by the way. In this request I also suggested a solution: maybe it is possible to make a configuration-setting "Intercom priority" that, if enabled, gives the intercom higher priority over the phone. But when disabled, gives the Phone higher priority over the intercom. That would solve it for ALL paying customers.
    Another option could be to prioritise the first phone over the intercom, and the second phone under the intercom, so customers can choose if they want to pair their GPS as mobile phone or second mobile phone. The second phone should support HFP as well as A2DP-protocol in that case.

    Come on Sena. The 20S ought to be top of the bill. Right now, as an intercom, it's virtually useless.

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    So to elaborate on Sena's answer: that would be a way to solve this: just let the GPS-pairing support the HFP as well as the A2DP-protocol.

     

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Hello Sena ?  Are you still there ?  According to ticket  #54869 this problem is now dropped at your Research and Development... Is it ?  Or was that just to shut me up ?  Hmmmm, Sena's have a way of shutting me up I guess. Maybe somethings wrong with their priorities ?

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  • Marc Woo
    Marc Woo

    Customer feedback is very important to us so we have passed along your request to our developers.

     

    Currently the priorities on the 20S are as follows:

    (highest)   Voice command mode (20S only)

    Ambient mode (20S only)

    Mobile phone (uses the HFP Bluetooth profile for either phone calls or GPS directions)

    Intercom

    Stereo music by audio cable

    Music sharing by Bluetooth stereo music (uses the A2DP and AVRCP Bluetooth profiles)

    FM Radio (20S, SMH5-FM, SPH10H-FM only)

    (lowest)     Bluetooth stereo music (uses the A2DP and AVRCP profiles for music and GPS directions from a smartphone app)

     

    The 20S is the only headset where it can combine functions using the Audio Multitasking feature such as Intercom + GPS directions (using GPS Pairing), Intercom + FM Radio, or Intercom + Bluetooth stereo music. Audio Multitasking allows the 20S is able to overlay the intercom with 1 other type of audio signal.

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  • Ken
    Ken

    Thank you, Sena, for listening.  We do understand that Sena has decided that the stereo Mobile Phone connection should have a higher priority than Intercom.  But in actual operation, it's a big problem.  

    As you probably have read here on your forum, our GPS units must connect as a mobile phone in order to provide the features for which we bought them; namely, stereo music, XM Radio, Audio Books, Weather Alerts,  other alerts, etc. as well as for Navigation.  And we purchased the 20Ss for their extraordinary Intercom operation, long range, extreme clear an quite reception, etc.  

    When the GPS interrupts Intercom communication it's more than just an inconvenience.  The intercom communication is often about routing, turns, stops, etc.  When the Zumo lady speaks, we lose the ability to communicate regarding routing.  This causes confusion in a group of riders, be it 2 riders or 9.  If more than one rider in the group has his/her GPS on and connected for stereo stuff, it doubles the confusion.  If all riders have theirs on; can you imagine the confusion when trying to communicate?   

    Take for an example a case where only the lead rider is using the Zumo for navigation.  The rest are depending on that rider's instructions and directions over the Intercom. All works well until the Zumo lady speaks.  She speaks two or three times as routing turns are approached. (more if a lane change is required).  So when the group needs the lead rider's Intercom the most,  it quits!  And imagine if more than just the leader has his Zumo going.  Intercom will be lost by more than just the leader.  

    Now, this is fairly serious for a group of motorcyclists.  Confusion in a group with routing changes and turns approaching can detract riders.  

    Sure, we can stop using our GPS units for Music, XM radio, weather alerts, traffic alerts, etc. and connect the GPS as a GPS device only.  If we want to listen to MP3 music, we could use our smartphones. But phone batteries run down rather quickly.  A 12 hour day will lose the phone in just 2 or 3 hours with a dead  battery.  Smart phones don't have reliable XM radio; and XM radio is stinko when the GPS is connected as a GPS with HFP.  Lack of stereo is tiring to listen to.  The state of the art is stereo music and we get it from our Zumos.  

    I suppose we could buy a 2nd GPS unit, connecting it as a pure GPS and turn off navigation on the GPS that's plugged in as a  1st phone for its stereo capability.  But really?  2 GPS units?  

    The answer seems simple to us users that are being confounded by the current priority in the 20S.  That is: Please change the priority so that mobile phone connection (A2DP) has the same priority as Intercom with the ability to audio multi-task.  Give us a button push or audio command so that when we want to use the phone, it takes the higher priority.  Doing this would lower the GPS navigation, beeps, etc. so that it could be audio-multitasked with Intercom unless we want or need the phone to take over.  

    With this scenario, the user could decide for him/herself if telephone is more important than Intercom.  I know which I would choose.  

    To me and every Sena user that I've recommended the product, INTERCOM is the most-used feature.  It's the feature we depend on to communicate; not just chit-chat, but important things like "STOP" when an emergency alert is needed for the pack, "We need to turn right up ahead."  when navigation tells us that a turn is approaching.  "I need to get gas." when someone has a need to stop.  "I have to go to the bathroom ASAP:" which can be rather important.  Or even "Rider down!" when there's a very serious problem in the pack that needs urgent attention.  A stupid phone call that can be taken later needs much lower priority as compared to Intercom.  

    The fact that our Garmin Zumos give us much more than navigation instructions when used as desired means that the Intercom is constantly being interrupted.  I believe that many of your Intercom failure complaints are due to the priority arrangement.  

    So I beg you to please come up with a way we can use our Garmin Zumos as they were intended to be used with the Sena by placing Intercom at a higher priority with the ability to place the phone at a higher priority whenever it is actually needed.  

    Ken

     

     

    The 20S is a fabulous unit.  I do not regret removing my Sena10R and upgrading to the 20S.  But a firmware change that would allow me to decide whether or not to put a higher priority on the telephone than Intercom would make it even better and more useable when riding in a group of Sena users.   

     

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Ken, you forgot: "Slow down, police behind us !"  :)

    Anyway, I applaud Sena for taking this to their developpers. I do very much hope that this isn't technically very complicated, and that we can see this taking shape in not too long a time. Maybe even Sena could post regular status updates here. I hope I'm not pushing it. I'm sorry in advance.

    I guess we have explained the problem enough now. If not I'm willing to take a plane to the States and demonstrate. Just say the word Sena. Whatever the solution is I don't know. It might be well solved changing the priority-table or so. But on a dutch GPS-forum I read another solution, which might even be less complicated: just let GPS-pairing support the A2DP-protocol. In that way, we could pair the GPS as a GPS (which sounds logical), in which it already has the right priorty. But if A2DP could be supported as well, we even could use all the equally importand features of the GPS also. I'll leave that decision to the developpers.

    Oh yeah: just wanted to say: pairing the phone with the 20S, and using that as a music-source is not an option. I need to pair the phone to the GPS (Zumo 590), because the GPS needs to communicate with weather- and trafficservers.

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  • Kamp
    Kamp

    I agree wih Ken and Marc. Please Sena listen to your customers.

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  • Jeff Dolence
    Jeff Dolence

    Folks, Sena may not want to tell us it is an Architectural limitation. I suspect the issue with prioritization is the hardware or software Sena is using on the 20S has limitations.  The H/W may have limited or fixed prioritization for connected inputs or the S/W may be limited or not support interrupt pre-emption with the depth for so many devices. Honestly, I am impressed that Bluetooth can transmit as far and well as it does!

    I partially solved the intercom and low volume issue with an SM10 connected to the 20S running version 1.2.  There are cheaper Bluetooth transmitters on the market, but the SM10 is somewhat waterproof and accepts multiple inputs.  I have my Zumo 550 and a Valentine One connected to the SM10.  My iPhone is connected as the 1st phone and the SM10 as the stereo device.  If memory serves me right, I could listen to MP3 and turn-by-turn from the GPS, beeps from the Valentine, and hear the intercom under all situations except when using the iPhone for voice, as the music source, or turn-by-turn.  I seem to remember having Intercom disconnect issues when using the phone.  I placed a feature request for Configurable Device Prioritization and Multiple A2DP devices to resolve being able to play music from the iPhone or voice usage while still hearing GPS prompts and Intercom, but there has never been a direct answer from Sena.  

    The reality is that the 20S is not perfect, but it is much better than the Cardo.  My second 20S died while sitting on my desk for the winter.  I fully charged it after the last use, but recently we had a nice riding day and it would not power up or charge.  I just replaced it and the Distributor told me that this was the first battery issue he has seen and the batteries are not replaceable.  Even I am smart enough to know that batteries don't last forever unless Sena is getting then from Klingon.  So, it became quite clear that Sena considers this disposable technology after you get your 2 years of warranty.  It is sad that it is about $130/year, and like all corporations their position is "we need on-going revenue and what do you expect for the price of a front tire"?

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    That would be pretty dissapointing. If it's a software-issue, a firmware upgrade could solve it right ?

    Well anyway: I don't expect the 20S to last a lifetime. After the 20S wears out eventuallyI will need another device that gives me what I want, namely: riding with good quality music on my ears which can be interrupted by the satnav. And an intercom with decent range which cannot be interrupted ! All wireless and weatherproof. The way Sena handles this issue will be in considderation when I go looking for this new device... This is not only me speaking. I think everybody thinks like this.

    Riding my bike is a serious hobby of mine, and I'm not afraid to throw money at it (have you seen the gas-prices in Holland ???). Whoever comes with a well thought out solution will catch my money.

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  • Jeff Matson
    Jeff Matson

    Really glad I found this forum - I was about to jump on a set of the 20S until I read this.

    I use my Zumi 665 for music (XM as well as MP3) so I need access to that as well as the Navigation directions, but the shutting off of the communication due to the navigation is enough for me to hold

    off for a while and wait to see if there is a resolution. I will keep checking back, and thanks to all of your above to help me understand how all this really works.

     

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  • Jeff Matson
    Jeff Matson

    Good information here. I'm a prospective purchaser and will be monitoring to see if anything comes out of this.

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  • Marc Telkamp
    Marc Telkamp

    Thanks for the contribution Jeff. Sena will get the message eventually...

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  • Peter Bellemans
    Peter Bellemans

    The only way (I found) to use intercom the way i want to use it (being the highest priority) is to shut down ALL other sources while riding in group.
    (Not only my other sources, but all other members shutting down all other sources.

    While riding in group our 20S devices are "downgraded" to plain intercom devices. (Not realy the reason to purchase the 20S)
    While riding in group i tend to be the "leader" quite often but have to rely solely on visual navigation (as speech is shut down due to the limitations of the 20S)

    Sena, can you please provide a solution to this problem or at least state if no other solution is possible?

    (Besides the intercom problems there are other problems related to the FM-radio, see my post "FM radio interruptions and RDS-AF" that i would like to get solved)

    Sena, this topic and the FM-radio problems are getting "old" but no solution is provided.
    (FM radio was reported as an issue loooooong ago, i even received a replacement 20S but that did't solve all problems, it just solved the basic functionality of the FM-radio)

    As a daily commuter and weekend rider (mostly in group) with about 40k km per year it is the least to say that these problems 'bother' me.
    It even starts to frustrate me when seeing facebook advertising for all the new Sena products apparently getting 'prioritised' above existing problems.

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