provide audio feedback from the recieved device back to the transmission devices speakers

Comments

29 comments

  • Lu Vencl
    Lu Vencl

    This could result in echo. Depending if the unit you are attached to might be already feeding some audio back. Inherit delays will cause this echo issue. Personally, I think this is a bad idea. The noise you have already from road / riding conditions will only further impair rx audio. At least make it an option as I would not want it.

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  • Randy Leonard
    Randy Leonard

    Every time you use a telephone you use a similar system without realizing it. Listen for it next time you use the phone, and you will realize you actually hear your own voice in the headset. You would need some noise cancellation circuitry to prevent echo though. As it is, I do find it unnerving that I'm talking into a dead space when I'm using the Sena. The Autocom wired bike / passenger system uses this system as well.

     

    Randy

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  • Lu Vencl
    Lu Vencl

    Oh I do realize it. I am in the telecommunications business and when some of the cell phone manufactures started to put "side tone" into their phones after the old analog AMPS days, I noticed that if you used the phone while driving a car and let’s say with the window down, the road noise would drown out the receive audio. I hated it.. I happen to be a device tester and after some major persuading, I talk them into reducing it big time and now days, some of the new phones have totally eliminated it. You are correct to say that some folks prefer to have it. Usability studies done at RIM (manufacturers of BlackBerry smartphones), LG and Motorola have demonstrated that a lack of sidetone has a tendency to make the user of a phone or cellular handset characterize it as dead or disconnected. In the same battery of tests, it was found that the presence of sidetone prevents users from needing to examine the device's display to determine if a call is still active. Or the other observation I have seen is the people tend to shout into the phone if they can't hear it.

    But all of this changing as new generations of kids are learning to use smartphones without side tone, or at least less than 5% of it. Again, personally I prefer not to have it. Now that said, if Sena had the option to adjust the microphone level so to not to pick up too much background noise as the newer version 2 SMH10's do, then perhaps it might be a useable feature. At least allow the option to adjust the amount of sidetone..

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  • Randy Leonard
    Randy Leonard

    I see you read the same wikipedia link I did...lol....I had forgotten that the "feedback" system is called sidetone.I completely agree with you.User adjustable Sidetone could easily be included through firmware.

     

    Randy

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  • Stephan Seitz
    Stephan Seitz

    Sidetone would be cool, but make sure it comes directly from the microphone and NOT from the receiving device! Echos, even only some milliseconds long ones, are VERY disturbing and annoying... :(

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  • Lu Vencl
    Lu Vencl

    Oh yes, there would be no other way. But my opinion still stands. Trust me, if you add sidetone you only make it harder to hear the other end when you are riding at higher speeds, especially now that Sena has boosted the microphone audio. But that of course is supposed to be fixed with an option to reduce microphone audio in the next release.

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  • Stephan Seitz
    Stephan Seitz

    Agreed. I just wanted to make sure that there will be NO echo from the receiving headset, due to the lag. ;)

     

    So while the feature is already in "planned"-state: How about giving the user the possibility to adjust the sidetone on his/her own from wherever (say 100%) down to 0% (=disabled) via the Manager software?

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  • Lu Vencl
    Lu Vencl

    Stephan,

    That would be an acceptable approach.. Hopefully there is enough memory left for Sena to work with.

    Lu Vencl

    KA4EPS

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  • Marc Woo
    Marc Woo

    We will try to provide this in the next release. Thank you for your feedbacks. Safe riding you guys.

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  • Christian Aasland
    Christian Aasland

    The other benefit of an adjustable sidetone is for those of us who use earphone which block ambient noise. Currently, with my Westone or Etymotic earphones, I cannot hear or understand people at gas stops, at stop signs, etc. But if the Sena had an adjustable sidetone, I would be able to hear them through the microphone.

    As it is, I sort of utilize this if I am riding with another sena user. I will connect (intercom) with the other Sena user and then listen to the conversation through their microphone. But when I am alone I can't do that ... or if I walked into a gas station, or at a toll booth, etc. 

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    +1 for sidetone support from the mic!  Today was my first chance to try the intercom feature while riding with friends.  A) Not being able to hear myself speak is, as was noted above, very disconcerting.  B) One of the three users had serious wind noise problems (poor mic placement) but couldn't hear it.  Also, the sidetone source /must/ be from the mic - delay in the sidetone would be... well, let's be nice and say no more.  Good point, too, on using sidetone when stopped for gas, etc. 

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    Does SMH-10 FW V4.1 add sidetone support? 

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  • Marc Woo
    Marc Woo

    v4.1 does not support sidetone yet. We will keep you informed later. Thank you.

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    Uh, Sena, sidetone is one of those "sooner rather later" things.  The more I think about the matter, the more I'm surprised it wasn't present from the start.  It's a standard part of telephony. 

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  • Gsansoucie
    Gsansoucie

    Glad I checked the forums.  I almost purchased the new Sena units because someone told me they had sidetone.

    Sidetone is really the only reason worth upgrading for me.

    I agree with the OP.  My Autocom (and just about every other intercom system I've used, both aviation and motorcycle) all have sidetone.  It is easier to speak when you can hear yourself.

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  • Stephan Seitz
    Stephan Seitz

    But please make it possible to adjust the volume level of the sidetone down to 0%, or at least makt it possible to switch sidetone completely off, for my motorcycle is loud enough and I don't want to hear it also via headset... ;)

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    That's the point of having a noise canceling mic - suppressing extraneous noise.  Mic placement helps control things, too.  

    And, er, I might point out that a bike that's so loud it overwhelms the intercom is, perhaps, a touch too loud, period? 

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  • Marc Woo
    Marc Woo

    The side-tone function itself is not difficult to provide; however, it is not all right at all at high speed since the wind noise is amplified as well  seriously during intercom call. We will consider to add this as an option in the next release. Thanks a lot for all your feedbacks for better product.

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    Well, in the group rides I've been on recently, the only mic that had serious wind problems (heard over the intercom in a conference connection) was due to a poorly placed mic (located at the bottom of the chin bar on a modular helmet).  Past that, if wind noise is a problem with side-tone, then it's not going to be any better for the people listening to that rider, period.  Again, side-tone earns its keep by saying "you need to drop out of the intercom conference because you're too noisy". 

    Obviously, there's some value in being able to change the mic volume (to pad down wind noise), although voice will be padded down, too.  At least with the mic padded down, the rider with the noisy mic can at least hope to hear what's being said, even he or she can't speak (too much wind noise). 

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  • Gsansoucie
    Gsansoucie

    I wish noise cancelation was as simple as cannibalizing my Autocom setup, but its an active system.

    But basically what RBEmerson said, sidetone helps you with your setup.  If you have bumped your mic and sending nothing but wind noise, you'd hear it and be able to address it rather than having someone walk your through your mic placement while you are riding ("How about now?",  "No....", "Now?", "No...."....).

    Make sidetone configurable and add it as a Beta piece of functionality (that is the beauty of upgradeable firmware).  Default it to off.  Those of us interested in it will turn it on and let you know what we think.  If it doesn't work, we turn it off and we are where we are now.

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  • Lu Vencl
    Lu Vencl

    Again, I caution all of you that want side tone. Unless you are a full face helmet use and use a very good helmet, you are going to end up with too much noise. As I personally mentioned in a prior post, this feature added can cause more harm then good.  Sena, please make sure it is an option one can turn on if desired, with the default being turned off. Failure to ensure that is is off by default will likely cause user disatisfaciton for those that do not meet the requirements I just explained.

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  • Gsansoucie
    Gsansoucie

    You obviously have never used an Autocom setup.  If sidetone was causing harm on an Autocom unit for you, it wasn't the sidetone feature that was the problem.  

    But a moot point if the feature is off by default (as I stated), allowing the masses who really want it to enable it and reap its goodness ;-)

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    +1 on Gsansoucie! 

    If, in fact, the helmet environment is so noisy that intercom connections don't work, it's not going to be any better with phone calls.  In short, if we ride with you, we'll be singing:

    Don't speak
    [We don't] know what you're saying
    So please stop explaining
    Don't tell [us] 'cause it hurts
    Don't speak [we don't] know what you're thinking
    [We] don't need your reasons
    Don't tell [us] 'cause it hurts

    [\^^^^^^^---- small bit of humor? - and apologies to Gwen Stefani]

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  • Marc Woo
    Marc Woo

    We are under testing the side tone option. It would be something like you can disable or enable the side tone option from the SMH10 Manager. It is expected to come in next release. Will get back to you later when ready!

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  • Robert Scaffidi
    Robert Scaffidi

    Please add it for the SPH10 unit also. I don't hear that much wind noise from the other persons mic and wouldn't expect it from my own.

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    Why not include sidetone management in the list of voice configuration options?  That strikes me as being something that would be changed on the road more often than just during an update. 

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  • Dan Ockenfels
    Dan Ockenfels

    Sena, any ETA on the next FW Release?  I'm also looking forward to the sidetone option.

    Thanks!

    DanO

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  • RBEmerson
    RBEmerson

    +1  -  I recently had an encounter with a traffic flagger at a road construction site - it was very hard to hear what he was saying; using the mic and sidetone would have been a big help.  (BTW, it all came out OK with the flagger - just took longer to figure out what was needed). 

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  • Roger
    Roger

    This is long overdue, when will we see it??????

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